Is Traditional Apfelwein same as Still & Dry Cider?

[DerSchopferVonEbbelwoi]

Hello folks,

I can’t seem to get my hands on Possman’s “Frankfurter Applewine” (see attached image) and so I have no way if knowing what I’ve made from Simply Apple (fresh-pressed, pasteurized, unfiltered apple juice), Pectin Enzyme, and Belle Saison yeast... “tastes right”.

In searching the forum for a recipe or some way of making a simple, natural-ABV, zero-additive, true-to-form apfelwein that tastes like what one would get in Frankfurt at an Apfelwein Garden... I’ve noticed that a few others are/were looking for the same thing, with no satisfactory answers. Perhaps they finally figured it out and they can now help me.

It has been mentioned that Edwort’s recipe tastes just like what one can get in Frankfurt, but would removing added sugar in the form of dextrose from this result in the same “tastes right” result?

So I have several questions, all of which should help me to zero in on what I’m looking for.

1) Does adding sugar in pre-fermentation affect end flavor profile? (i.e. does removing the dextrose from Edwort’s “Apfelwein” recipe result in the “wrong” flavor?)

2) Does fermenting American sweet orchard cider until dry result in the same thing as Frankfurt-style apfelwein?

and finally...

3) Does apfelwein taste the same as either “Scrumpy”, or perhaps the recipe on here called “Everyday Simplest Cider”?

 

[Maylar]

I think one of the posts in the Edwort's Apfelwine thread has a comparison of the real thing v.s. what they're making. Maybe search that thread for "Germany" or some such keyword to help narrow down the search.

 

[DerSchopferVonEbbelwoi]

Yes; I found where Edwort’s recipe is purported to taste the same as Possmann’s, only containing more alcohol (as I mentioned above).

However, what I’ve been pondering is:

How AJFC (AJ from Concentrate) w/ ascorbic acid (as used by Edwort in his Apfelwein recipe) produces a similar apfelwein product to Possmann’s, which is touted as being made from 14 different apples, harvested by/for Possmann!

(see photo)

I recognize that answers to my questions may be elusive for several reasons, including that traditional apfelwein remains a largely unknown beverage, and that Possmann rightly keeps trade-secrets... secret. Also, Frankfurt-local apfelwein makers might use a different process, whereas our use of AJC may very well approximate the process used by Possmann.

However, I love getting to the absolute rock-bottom of subjects. Let’s figure this out, rather than simply staying within our current school of thought of either:

“just pitch some yeast in some AJ”,

-or-

“unless you obtain heirloom cider apples and press them using a dedicated, proprietary apple press, it’s not REAL cider”

Thank you in advance for sharing any knowledge you may have that relates to these questions, rather than shouting from your otherwise-closed echo chamber.
————
So then...

AJFC has always smelled and tasted completely different from fresh-pressed apple juice to me. I actually can’t stand the taste of AJC. It perplexes me how Edwort’s recipe could taste like one presumably fresh/pressed from specific varieties, as is, I gather, Possmann Apfelwein (“Applewine” in U.S.)

Thus I wonder:

1) Is Possmann making their own AJFC (or having AJFC made by contract) from these apple varieties for dedicated apfelwein use?

2) Would there be any FLAVOR benefits to a commercial cider maker using a custom AJC from selected varieties, rather than simply purchasing standard Treetop, Mott’s, etc. AJC in bulk?

3) Does the juice concentrate process cause the fresh apple juice to somehow take on desirable qualities that result in what would have been a fancy cider in the Old World? I understand that the “sweating” process of leaving either whole apples out in piles to become overripe, or leaving the pulp to oxidize and brown, has been historically used to develop a softer, more matured, rounder flavor profile... Could the concentrate process, in a parallel way, help to develop certain flavors that are desirable for a cider?

4) What qualities might be gained and lost by concentrating apple juice, and how does that affect the cider in the end? Is this desirable or preferable to using fresh pressed?

5) Could AJFC effectively replace pressing “cider apples”, due to the blend that goes into the concentrate?

 

[Maylar]

The same conditions apply when trying to clone a commercial cider. People come here all the time asking for a "recipe" for Angry Orchard, Woodchuck, or what have you. Unless you have access to exactly the same apple juice and processes it's impossible to duplicate them. And most commercial cider makers are unwilling to share details. All you'll get from Angry Orchard for instance is that they use culinary apples from Northern Italy and bittersharps from Normandy France.

Your questions are complicated. But for practical reasons, we use what's available. People who don't have access to different apple varieties are at the mercy of whatever they can get. You're not gonna get fresh pressed juice made for fermenting hard cider in Florida. And even those of us lucky to live in apple lands often have to accept the sweet table cider that cider mills press for the general public. With experience we figure out what yeast to use, and what adjuncts to add at the end to give us the results we want. Whether it mimics someone else's product or not is a who cares.

Edit: And as far as concentrate goes, I believe it's simply a matter of economics in transportation. Cheaper to ship juice without the water.

 

[madscientist451]

1) Does adding sugar in pre-fermentation affect end flavor profile? (i.e. does removing the dextrose from Edwort’s “Apfelwein” recipe result in the “wrong” flavor?)

2) Does fermenting American sweet orchard cider until dry result in the same thing as Frankfurt-style apfelwein?

and finally...

3) Does apfelwein taste the same as either “Scrumpy”, or perhaps the recipe on here called “Everyday Simplest Cider”?

1. Yes, adding sugar to apple juice will change the flavor. Some people don't mind the taste, others can't stand it. Some commercial apple wine producers have won medals in contests and those wines had added sugar.
2. Every orchard uses a different blend of apples in their cider, the blend changes as the season progresses and the apples themselves are different from year to year, so Maybe it would be the same as apfelwein, but probably not, since the apples available in the Frankfurt area are going to be different than in your area.
I was looking through my cider books a while back and found a quote that said apfelwein was made from dessert apples from local orchards, now I can't find that quote, but the post (above, thanks for posting that!) with the illustration of specific apples indicates that statement is only partially true.
3. Don't know....

I looked up Possmann's apfelwein on the rate beer website and it has 5.5% ABV, so you probably don't have to add much sugar. There are 75 ratings and most of the tasters didn't really like it.

 

[DerSchopferVonEbbelwoi]

1. Yes, adding sugar to apple juice will change the flavor. Some people don't mind the taste, others can't stand it. Some commercial apple wine producers have won medals in contests and those wines had added sugar.
2. Every orchard uses a different blend of apples in their cider, the blend changes as the season progresses and the apples themselves are different from year to year, so Maybe it would be the same as apfelwein, but probably not, since the apples available in the Frankfurt area are going to be different than in your area.
I was looking through my cider books a while back and found a quote that said apfelwein was made from dessert apples from local orchards, now I can't find that quote, but the post (above, thanks for posting that!) with the illustration of specific apples indicates that statement is only partially true.
3. Don't know....

I looked up Possmann's apfelwein on the rate beer website and it has 5.5% ABV, so you probably don't have to add much sugar. There are 75 ratings and most of the tasters didn't really like it.

Thanks for giving answers to those questions!

I think that Edwort’s Apfelwein recipe is a practical workaround to achieving something that tastes close to Possmann’s. I’m not going to rely on those ratings to decide whether I will ever try Possmann’s, especially since Edwort himself says his tastes like Possman’s and that it grows on you. Plenty have followed his recipe and liked it.

Tonight, I’ll be bottling a gallon each of:

Simply Apple fresh-pressed w/ Pectic Enzyme added, pitched with Belle Saison yeast, and fermented until “still”,

-and-

Aldi-brand AJFC w/ascorbic acid, pitched with Belle Saison yeast, and fermented stillish for 4 weeks, then using AJC to bottle-carb for 4 more weeks. (This is basically “Everyday Simplest Dry Cider” by user Phug, but with Belle Saison instead of EC-1118)

I’ll taste some now, and let the rest age at intervals of one month, up to 6 months.

For my next attempt at apfelwein, I’ll use the same juices as above, and instead pitch “Premier Classique” (formerly Montrachet yeast, which is specified by Edwort for his Apfelwein), but with no added sugar.

I was originally thinking that the Saison yeast fermenting in a 70-degree closet would make an “Old-World-traditional” apfelwein, approximating a wild, farm-y yeast like may have been on apples used for apfelwein in the 18th century. We’ll see if it’s any good, regardless of whether it’s using German apples grown in Frankfurt, an approximation should be possible. I’m sure that at some point in history, something like what I made has been served in an Apfelwein Garten in Sachsenhausen.

We’ll see how that turns out.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m not really trying to “clone” any particular brand, but rather get a good approximation of what traditional apfelwein would taste like. I got turned onto the idea from a little documentary on Frankfurt Apfelwein:



And so, since I can’t find apfelwein at any liquor stores I’ve tried or called so far, I decided to just go ahead and make it myself. Actually, it’s that video that made me start fermenting!

I’ll update with the results, and if it’s any good over the next 6 months I’ll post the recipe!

 

[ebbelwoi]

Thanks for posting the video. Last night I sat down to watch it with a glass of my own cider (then two), and afterwards did some Web research in German on Apfelwein/Most.

Just to play devil's advocate to your earlier posts: I spent some time in Germany about 25 years ago. My impression then of Apfelwein was that it was a cheap, rather lowbrow drink. The only people I saw drinking it were middle-aged or older, mostly men who hadn't taken very good care of themselves. Some of them may have even been homeless. Those are the memories that that yellow Possmann label conjured up. I never actually tried it, though.

I noticed all the different varieties that Possmann says they use. My guess is that it's more about consistency and availability than it is about achieving a desired flavor. It could be that that's less of a recipe (which would generally include proportions and amounts) and more of a "may include..." list. Apple harvests can vary from year to year. It seems that using such a wide variety could help with a more consistent flavor. If one or two variety had a bad harvest one year, the flavors of the other varieties might cover up their absence. But that's just conjecture on my part.

Regarding Apfelwein recipes on this forum, based on the German and Austrian websites I looked at, the ones using added sugar don't seem to be traditional recipes. Traditional Apfelwein, which has an ABV of 5.5-7%, does not appear to contain added sugar, only apples and yeast.

I have a hunch, really just a hunch, that if you tried Possmann Apfelwein, you might be a little disappointed, and think, "Well, I could do better than that," and you'd probably be right. I understand your interest in recreating a traditional version, but I wonder whether your time and effort might not be better spent working on a recipe that simply tastes really good.

Good luck and enjoy the fruits of your labor!

 

[DerSchopferVonEbbelwoi]

Thanks for posting the video. Last night I sat down to watch it with a glass of my own cider (then two), and afterwards did some Web research in German on Apfelwein/Most.

Just to play devil's advocate to your earlier posts: I spent some time in Germany about 25 years ago. My impression then of Apfelwein was that it was a cheap, rather lowbrow drink. The only people I saw drinking it were middle-aged or older, mostly men who hadn't taken very good care of themselves. Some of them may have even been homeless. Those are the memories that that yellow Possmann label conjured up. I never actually tried it, though.

I noticed all the different varieties that Possmann says they use. My guess is that it's more about consistency and availability than it is about achieving a desired flavor. It could be that that's less of a recipe (which would generally include proportions and amounts) and more of a "may include..." list. Apple harvests can vary from year to year. It seems that using such a wide variety could help with a more consistent flavor. If one or two variety had a bad harvest one year, the flavors of the other varieties might cover up their absence. But that's just conjecture on my part.

Regarding Apfelwein recipes on this forum, based on the German and Austrian websites I looked at, the ones using added sugar don't seem to be traditional recipes. Traditional Apfelwein, which has an ABV of 5.5-7%, does not appear to contain added sugar, only apples and yeast.

I have a hunch, really just a hunch, that if you tried Possmann Apfelwein, you might be a little disappointed, and think, "Well, I could do better than that," and you'd probably be right. I understand your interest in recreating a traditional version, but I wonder whether your time and effort might not be better spent working on a recipe that simply tastes really good.

Good luck and enjoy the fruits of your labor!

Thank you!

I’m letting my two different batches age, and I am confident that aging will produce something enjoyable.

I’ll be starting another run soon, this time using Edwort’s reco’d yeast, one gallon with AJFC, and one gallon with Simply Apple, neither with added sugar.

Regarding what you wrote about Possmann Apfelwein not tasting good to me, you may be right.

However, the facts that:

1) Edwort can produce a decent approximation of Possmann’s using cheap AJFC,

-and-

2) that others on here enjoy it, lauding it’s quality after aging,

is perhaps an indication that making apfelwein which tastes traditional and is simple to make at home with store-bought juice, is possible.

I doubt that it necessitates sourcing apples from the correct “terroir” as someone mentioned on here before. But hey, that’s what I’m here to learn! Since I haven’t found any recipes in a natural-abv apfelwein style, I’m apparently in somewhat new territory by trying to broaden my understanding of Apfelwein.

 

[DerSchopferVonEbbelwoi]

 

[DerSchopferVonEbbelwoi]

This tasted quite horrible, as expected, but it was STRONGGGG!

The cloudiness is yeast and sediment. My 5 gallon size racking cane stands a bit too far off the trub for a 1 gallon, and so I had some liquid left. I ran it through a rinsed paper coffee filter and drank it. An imperial pint just about knocked me out

 

[ebbelwoi]

Looks nice.

One thing I neglected to mention: regarding your question, "Is Traditional Apfelwein same as Still & Dry Cider?" from what I've found, the answer is yes. The German articles I've read essentially say that the process of making Apfelwein is the same is the process of making basic cider, as are the ingredients, namely apples and yeast.

 

[DerSchopferVonEbbelwoi]

Yeah, I’m coming to that realization as well. I don’t believe it’s traditionally as puckering as a cider made from bittersharps like Kingston Black or Crab apple varieties, unless it’s the Speierling Apfelwein. As long as it’s refreshing, dry, and tastes like it was made from apples I’ll be happy. I imagine that, like dry wines, Whiskey, Gin, Porter, Saison, etc., it’s an acquired taste and you want to start off knowing what it “should” taste like as a reference.

Because so many commercial ciders taste like seltzer water and artificially flavored apple syrup, it’ll be a new experience for me.
I’ve had dry ciders before, but as has been discussed, most of those are way off the mark due in part to the loss of knowledge of real cider during U.S. Prohibition.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'd like to make a nice traditional german gewürztraminer wine, but I've never actually tasted it.
Can someone give me a good recipe for german gewürztraminer?

I added some ale yeast to some welch's white grape juice and let it sit in a closet. How close do you think I got?