Is this a mini Mash

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jcarson83

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I've brewed 3 batches now and am starting to get comfortable with getting away from the kits and using some recipes. With the kits I've been using it calls for a sock to be filled with some grains and steeped in water for 1 hour at 170. I've been using 3 gal (thats all my pot will hold) and not adding more water until after I boil the malt extract for 1 hour.

Is this considered a mini mash and is it a good techique?
 

Walker

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there has been a lot of discussion about this around here.

it's only a "mash" if you are using grains that need starch converted to sugar.

If you are only using roasted or crystal malts, all the steps are the same, but you are not technically "mashing", just steeping grain that has no starches in it.

-walker
 

clayof2day

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I thought it was only a mash if you were using grain that had enzymes to convert starch to sugar. If you had starch with no enzymes, it wouldn't break down and you wouldn't be mashing...correct? Not trying to start debate, I was here when that one went down.
 
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jcarson83

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The kits I've been using are the roasted grains. I think its just to give the desired color and some flavors.

So if this isn't mashing what is the proper term to describe it. Just steeping?
 

uwmgdman

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jcarson83 said:
The kits I've been using are the roasted grains. I think its just to give the desired color and some flavors.

So if this isn't mashing what is the proper term to describe it. Just steeping?

You got it!
:mug:
 

Ivan Lendl

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jcarson83 said:
I've brewed 3 batches now and am starting to get comfortable with getting away from the kits and using some recipes. With the kits I've been using it calls for a sock to be filled with some grains and steeped in water for 1 hour at 170. I've been using 3 gal (thats all my pot will hold) and not adding more water until after I boil the malt extract for 1 hour.

Is this considered a mini mash and is it a good techique?
you might want to steep @ lower temps and for less time. I'd do 155F for 30 minutes, and no longer.
 

Lou

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clayof2day said:
I thought it was only a mash if you were using grain that had enzymes to convert starch to sugar. If you had starch with no enzymes, it wouldn't break down and you wouldn't be mashing...correct?
correct. it's only mash if you're actually converting starches to sugars.
 

Beer Snob

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jcarson83 said:
I've brewed 3 batches now and am starting to get comfortable with getting away from the kits and using some recipes. With the kits I've been using it calls for a sock to be filled with some grains and steeped in water for 1 hour at 170. I've been using 3 gal (thats all my pot will hold) and not adding more water until after I boil the malt extract for 1 hour.

Is this considered a mini mash and is it a good techique?
This would actualy be considered a Steep... as far as good technique goes ... I guess this all depends on how many days you wore the sock for?
 

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Beer Snob said:
This would actualy be considered a Steep... as far as good technique goes ... I guess this all depends on how many days you wore the sock for?

Sick dude :drunk:
 

clayof2day

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I've done the sock, I actually used a stocking once too, when I had to fit a ton of grain in there. It works, but I think Beer Snob had it right on the nose, only use it for one batch.
 
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jcarson83

jcarson83

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I meant a grain sock. Those disposable gauze tubes with a knot tied on the end. I guess I could use a sock though.

Why would I want to at a lower temp for less time? I know you don't want to burn the grains but after I remove them I bring it to a boil anyway.
 

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At that temperature you're really close to releasing tannins which is no good for your beer. I can't answer why the less time question.
 

Beer Snob

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jcarson83 said:
Why would I want to at a lower temp for less time? I know you don't want to burn the grains but after I remove them I bring it to a boil anyway.
If someone can double check what I'm saying here, it would be most appreciated :)

People who do AG eventually bring the mash to the temperature you are using, but instead of keeping it there for an hour as you are doing its more like 10 minutes or so. This period is called Mash Out. At that temperature the grains that has been converting to sugar will stop converting. You then add water to start sparging (or in a batch you will drain quickly at this point). The temperature that is kept for an hour usually is in the 150 -158 range. The lighter the beer the lower the temperature.

Usually in a steep you want to put the crushed grains in the grain bag (or sock as you worded it... no .... don't use a real sock :D ...) It's then really simple. You put this bag in the water you plan to use and turn on the heat. You want to keep an eye on it and before it starts to boil take the bag out and let it drain. Some take some water out and pour it over this bag to help rinse out more sugars. I do this some times and not others for no consistant reason really. The only thing you absolutely do not want to do is compress the grains so that more of the liquid will drain out. This will more then likely give tannins for sure (tannins are bitter).
 
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This is all great information. The reason I'm asking is I'm trying to perfect my methods for my first partial mash. I'm trying to clone a Mirror Pond (see the mirror pond post in the recipe section) and the recipe calls for a partial mash. The recipe I'm using is out of North American Clone Brews.

It calls for 2lbs pale malt and 1lb light crystal malt (20L) brought to 164F in 1 1/4 gal then steeped for 90 mins. Then sparge with 2 gallons of water @ 168F. Then the typical DME methods.

Can this partial mash be done with the grain bag method so I don't have to strain it before I go onto the DME part?
 

Ivan Lendl

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jcarson83 said:
[/I].

It calls for 2lbs pale malt and 1lb light crystal malt (20L) brought to 164F in 1 1/4 gal then steeped for 90 mins. Then sparge with 2 gallons of water @ 168F. Then the typical DME methods.

Can this partial mash be done with the grain bag method so I don't have to strain it before I go onto the DME part?
The 164F is the strike temp. Bring the water to this temp, then add the grain, mix well and the temp should stablize at around 150-155, then let that sit for 60 minutes. ( 90 minutes would be conterproductive, everything will be converted by 60). Then do your best to rinse the grains with 170F h20 @ .5 g per lbs.
 

Ivan Lendl

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jcarson83 said:
How do you feel about the sock or grain bag?
all fuzzy/warm inside...Umm yeah go for it, that will work. Just dont squeeze it, and dont expect really good efficiency...Id use a big collander instead. Theyve got a nice one at k-mart for like 20 bucks thats stainless and huge with alot of small holes in it. Its made by Martha Stewart living and as she would say, "its a good thing" after mashing just dump the grains in there and gently ladel a few gallons of 170F h20 over that and your done...
 

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jcarson83 said:
This is all great information. The reason I'm asking is I'm trying to perfect my methods for my first partial mash. I'm trying to clone a Mirror Pond (see the mirror pond post in the recipe section) and the recipe calls for a partial mash. The recipe I'm using is out of North American Clone Brews.

It calls for 2lbs pale malt and 1lb light crystal malt (20L) brought to 164F in 1 1/4 gal then steeped for 90 mins. Then sparge with 2 gallons of water @ 168F. Then the typical DME methods.

Can this partial mash be done with the grain bag method so I don't have to strain it before I go onto the DME part?
I was about to say that 164 is still high. Too high... then it suddenly occured to me. You do not want to keep the mash at 164. 164 is your strike temperature. This means that your going to heat up your water to 164, then you add your grains. The temperature will drop quickly because the grain has a lower temperture then your strike water. If your grain temperature is 80 degrees then 5 quarts of strike water at 164 degrees should settle out at 155 degrees (they put you in the middle range so if its off a few degrees either way it will be fine).
 

Beer Snob

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By the way... someone can commend on this but 90 minutes seems like a REAL long time. 2 row malt converts very easily. My last mash was 60 minutes and many would say that is a long time.
 

Ivan Lendl

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Beer Snob said:
By the way... someone can commend on this but 90 minutes seems like a REAL long time. 2 row malt converts very easily. My last mash was 60 minutes and many would say that is a long time.
Palmer explains this in his book. It has something to do with rates of enzyme activity. The activity peaks at 20 minutes, and then starts to decline. After 60 minutes the activity dramatically drops really low. Something like that.
This is why he suggest to just do the 60, and not go by an iodine test, which i found to give false positives myself after only 10 minutes of mashing. The starch might be converted after 20 minutes but not fully, and to what extent an iodine test will not tell you.
 

Beer Snob

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Bjorn Borg said:
dont expect really good efficiency...Id use a big collander instead.
This is good advice, but for this first one I would not worry too much about efficiency. Your only doing 2 pounds of malt which means the greater bulk is going to be LME or DME. The collander certainly would not go to waste though if you had the money to buy it now. Why don't you give us the recipe here? I have found that I stay out of trouble when I post my recipe to make sure it has no big holes.... (you'll see my last recipe a little farther down the thread list (Michael's Stout))
 
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Will a gravity reading tell you anything about what starches have been converted at this point?
 

Beer Snob

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Bjorn Borg said:
Palmer explains this in his book. It has something to do with rates of enzyme activity. The activity peaks at 20 minutes, and then starts to decline. After 60 minutes the activity dramatically drops really low. Something like that.
Have you seen the online book of Palmer, the author Bjorn Borg is referring to?
This is the section on partial mashes....

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter18-3.html
 
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jcarson83

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I read the part of that book about partial mash and it made it sound more complicated than I thought originally. I don't want to have to buy a cooler and build a lauter tun. Is all this necassary or does a stainer work nearly as well?
 

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Understand. That metal manifold in the rubbermaid is the "strainer". You'll be fine with the strainer or if money is tight just use the bag you were thinking of. First time doing this your going to worry about things 10 times more then you need to and nobody who says not to worry about it is going to change it. Try not to...drink a bit while doing the PM it will help. Whatever you do remember that you are adding a bit of fermentables in the end. That's a nice little safety catch that should settles big worries really.
 
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jcarson83

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Let me know if you see any holes.


Mirror Pond

Heat 1 1/4 gallons water to 164F. Crush:
2lb pale malt
1lb light (20L) crystal malt

Add to liquor and steep 152F for 90 min. Sparge with 2 gallons water at 168F. Add to runnings:
3lb unhopped, pale DME

Bring to a boil and add:
6 AAUs Cascade hops

Boil 45 min and add:
6 AAUs Cascade hops

Boil 15 min, remove from heat, cool and top to 5 1/4 gallons with chillled preboiled water. Cool to 68F then pitch:
American ale yeast (Wyeast 1056)

Ferment at 68F for 2 weeks then transfer to secondary and add:
10 AAUs cascade hops

Condition-cool 50-55F for 3 weeks. Prime with:
1 cup pale DME

Bottle and age 3 weeks.


Its more likely that I will be condition at around 70F since I don't have a fridge setup and I doubt I'll leave it in secondary for 3-4 weeks. More likely 2 weeks. I haven't dry hoped either but a lot of the recipes in this book call for it so I guess I'll try it.
 
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jcarson83

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Blender said:
Your recipe looks pretty good but is 3 lb. of DME enough? What is your target OG?
OG: 1044
FG: 1008
4.6% abv
35-40 IBU

Your probably right I would rather have it around 5-5.5%.
So what I should probably shoot for a OG of around 1052? If I did the math right.
 

Blender

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A quick run through Promash yeilds the following. My guess is that you will not get all the sugars from the pale malt that are needed and if you can ferment down to 1.008 you will be doing very well.

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 6.00
Anticipated OG: 1.039 Plato: 9.68
Anticipated SRM: 6.6
Anticipated IBU: 0.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Tinseth
Tinseth Concentration Factor: 1.30


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
50.0 3.00 lbs. Generic DME - Light Generic 1.046 8
33.3 2.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) America 1.036 2
16.7 1.00 lbs. Crystal 20L America 1.035 20

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Yeast
-----
 

Blender

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It just tells you that your SG based on ingrdients is 1.039 with 70% extraction from the grain. Add 1 lb. of DME and it rises to 1.047 and add another for a total of 5 lbs. and it rises to 1.055. What is your hopping schedule?
 
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jcarson83

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60min left
45min
15min
dry hop after 2 weeks

Hops don't add any fermentables do they?
 
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jcarson83

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I don't know yet its giving me AAUs

60 min left 6AAU
15 min left 6AAU
after 2 weeks dry hop 10AAu

I was wrong earlier. This recipe isn't the easiest format to follow.
 

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