Is this a dumb idea for cone heads?

[robint]

Ive been reading about conical ferment vessels $$$$$ and Trub forbid - pressure fermenting $$$$$$$$ - no way José
I came across a clear ABS plastic rectangular box tub (used for Pantry storage) - well made with a tight clip lid
ca 12"w x 12"l x 15"h good for ca 3gal 15L for $10. A deal? Largest one is 25L £15

For a start its very easy to attach a spigot tap at the bottom (a flat surface presents for good seal)

Then If I tilt the box on a bottom corner the tub presents a conical vessel where the trub can settle in a convenient small space (rather than all over the bottom floor). The trub could be syphoned easily from that tilted corner. Then the box righted to decant finished wort into bottles via the spigot tap.

Furthermore the box tub is very clear so you can see what is happening. (not like most conical FVs)

At the end, take the lid off and clean inside easily (unlike jars, carboys, barrels etc)

In short think out of the round and into the box

What do you think guys

 

[Jeroen79]

Is it airtight?, otherwise its a bad idea

 

[robint]

Is it airtight?, otherwise its a bad idea

The lid is a good flat fit. I guess I could make a flexible gasket, or just a smear of silicon grease, Its well made and the clips are sound. Its a ferment vessel and to allow venting of CO2. I wouldnt propose something that was obviously mickey mouse quality here

remember here that most people just ferment in a plastic bucket with a lid

 

[mac_1103]

I have three plastic bucket fermenters. All of them are air tight if you put the lids on correctly.

You can put spigots on buckets too, and prop them up so the trub settles away from the spigot.

 

[fluketamer]

no dont do it.

others will agree.

there is so many better cheap options.

but more importantly abs plastic is resin code 7.

know your resin codes. it could actually be an issue with some homebrewing. for example i wouldnt make my lemoncello in anything but glass cause the 96 percent alcohol will dissolve space shuttle tiles practically. and i sometime use alcohol tinctures in beer brewing.

i seem to recall 2- 4 for homebrewing. search plastic codes in the search bar up top theres a lot of threads. however i also remember 1 is PET and i use the F$c& out of PET in my brewery.

you are too scared of trub. dont be. tip your fermenter back when feremtnign and cold crashing then forward when racking. trub will be in the back of the FV away from your shpigatz. lol


what you really want is a wide mouth well sealing semi transparent not clear, durable lightwieght vessel. thats resistnat to scartching and relatively PBW
tolerant.

oops i almost forgot THE MOST important thing in homebrewing (for me at least) your vessel must fit in a chamber that is temp controlled or have a cooling coil that you can run glycol through ($)

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2255800895243582.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt

the fermzilla flatbottom is 12$ at ali run dont walk.

i have had a lot of success with this fermenter .

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Nothing wrong with being inventive but you can't find a better solution than an inexpensive bucket for home brewing. Food grade plastic, smooth sides, air tight cover, and very adaptable to adding a drain valve.

On the topic of different plastic types, I'd be afraid of off flavors from plastic and how well it would hold up to brewery cleaners and sanitizers. Not worth it IMO.

 

[robint]

I checked again and my box is labelled "food safe" BPA free, ok for dish washers and Im not pregnant (no beer belly) so I guess Im good for a few more years

My mistake I came across a clear ABS plastic rectangular box tub Its definitely not ABS - you can smell the chemicals in that stuff. I think its a kind of clear food safe polythene HDPE as used for food storage boxes etc.

 

[robint]

Yes, followed up Alix on this it £9 for a 30L plastic jug and £60 for shipping. It does look the business. Nice wide neck to get your hand in for cleaning. As you say, tilt the jug back on a block so the trub collects away from the tap. Then tip forward when drawing finish brew. I LIKE THAT - CHEERS
The devil is in the detail.

Mine was £9 delivered. I checked the lid. Its not air tight with a gasket, but its a snug flat fit. I could put some vaseline around the surface but I can leave it so the CO2 seeps out and I wont have to use a bubbler. IMHO I wont need one as I can see whats bubbling inside anyway. Bubblers are unreliable as they can leak gas so they dont bubble - as I have found. At the end of ferment bubblers cease activity but that doesnt mean that product is ready to bottle. Wisdom says you must check a hydrometer and see if the reading falls any lower - this may take a few days. No one want bottle bombs. My brew pal had a couple of those in his pantry. He never really recovered from the sticky mess/smell it made and the attraction for fruit flies/ants and bugs - REALLY DONT NEED THAT.

Are bubblers just a gimmick anyway

 

[robint]

OOPS

 

[mac_1103]

The problem isn't CO2 seeping out. It's all the stuff that might seep in.

 

[fluketamer]

whats the resin code on your clear plastic box? the triangle with the number in it.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

View attachment 862391

Yes, followed up Alix on this it £9 for a 30L plastic jug and £60 for shipping. It does look the business. Nice wide neck to get your hand in for cleaning. As you say, tilt the jug back on a block so the trub collects away from the tap. Then tip forward when drawing finish brew. I LIKE THAT - CHEERS
The devil is in the detail.

Mine was £9 delivered. I checked the lid. Its not air tight with a gasket, but its a snug flat fit. I could put some vaseline around the surface but I can leave it so the CO2 seeps out and I wont have to use a bubbler. IMHO I wont need one as I can see whats bubbling inside anyway. Bubblers are unreliable as they can leak gas so they dont bubble - as I have found. At the end of ferment bubblers cease activity but that doesnt mean that product is ready to bottle. Wisdom says you must check a hydrometer and see if the reading falls any lower - this may take a few days. No one want bottle bombs. My brew pal had a couple of those in his pantry. He never really recovered from the sticky mess/smell it made and the attraction for fruit flies/ants and bugs - REALLY DONT NEED THAT.

Are bubblers just a gimmick anyway

Bubblers or fermentation locks do work if used properly, not a gimmick. If you don't trust them a blow off tube works fine too.

 

[robint]

The problem isn't CO2 seeping out. It's all the stuff that might seep in.

This is a snug fitting clipped lid. What do you think is going to sneak in? Yes we know the air is full of floating microbes/viruses/spores/yeasts but wonderful thing about brewing is that once you have pitched your yeast, it rapidly takes over and multiplies and out strips any potential contaminants. Once your wort is prepared it is quickly cooled and pitched before anything can invade. Certainly if you left your wort in open air uncovered for 24 hours - thing would be happening by themselves. Alcohol quickly disables a lot of things and the environment cease to be aerobic so most potential floaters just die off. A blanket of CO2 does a lot of sanitizing protection too

Lots of brewers use buckets with clipped lids, mine is transparent P5 polypropylene and well made (not a crude pvc bucket moulding)

 

[fluketamer]

although the co2 blanket is one of those homebrew myths, im fine with the sort of open ferment. i fermented for a long time in mr beer kegs and still sometimes do. no airlock in them. im more concerned with the recycle code. does it have a triangle with a number in it. i think all plastics do.

 

[robint]

whats the resin code on your clear plastic box? the triangle with the number in it.

View attachment 862399

This is a recycling system thing - is it EU?
my vessel is no P5 polypropylene recognised safe for food storage. It also has the food safety logo

 

[mac_1103]

What do you think is going to sneak in?

Oxygen, if nothing else. As already noted, the CO2 blanket is a myth. And oxygen not only can ruin your beer on its own, but can create an environment that is more favorable to other microbes, even after the yeast has been pitched. If yeast and alcohol could prevent anything else from growing, there would be no such thing as wine vinegar or sour beer.

 

[mac_1103]

Also, FWIW, oxygen permeability of PP is comparable to HDPE and about an order of magnitude worse than PET.

 

[fluketamer]

thats polypropylene i think you are ok but personally i wouldnt use it. and yes as said above its more o2 permeable. i think if you havent already bought it there are better options.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Say what you want but I use a stainless steel conical fermenter to brew ten gallon batches of beer. I used plastic buckets for years, then a plastic conical.
Stainless steel is expensive but once you make the investment you're basically done.

 

[robint]

thats polypropylene i think you are ok but personally i wouldnt use it. and yes as said above its more o2 permeable. i think if you havent already bought it there are better options.

Hmm is this why Beer and lager are not sold in PET bottles?

shelf life and O2 permeation would make the product go sour ? How long would it take? Month, 6 months year?

Sure the Industry must have figured this?

ps it seems that 6 months should be ok but you must keep out of sunlight - in fact even in glass bottles, exposure on a hot day quickly creates nasty 3MBT which binds with Hop flavours to make mercaptans (exceeding foul skunky smell detectable in part per trillion) - bad news (called light fouling in the trade) - within 10 mins



grab a tub of copper glutonate?

BTW the vid said that temp heating didnt make much difference - hmm

From my experience in the far east - you never attempt to neck a warm beer - its way too unpleasant

 

[mac_1103]

Hmm is this why Beer and lager are not sold in PET bottles?

PET is less permeable than PP or HDPE. But the permeability of a vessel also depends on the thickness of the material. Thin PET soda bottles probably aren't suitable for long term storage of beer but lots of people (myself included) use them for short term stuff like carbonation test bottles or DIY minikegs if the whole batch won't fit in a corny. Thicker amber PET bottles like the ones that come in Mr Beer kits are fine but cost more than glass or aluminum.

 

[worlddivides]

shelf life and O2 permeation would make the product go sour ? How long would it take? Month, 6 months year?

Sure the Industry must have figured this?

ps it seems that 6 months should be ok but you must keep out of sunlight - in fact even in glass bottles, exposure on a hot day quickly creates nasty 3MBT which binds with Hop flavours to make mercaptans (exceeding foul skunky smell detectable in part per trillion) - bad news (called light fouling in the trade) - within 10 mins

Oxygen and shelf life don't make alcoholic beverages go sour. Certain kinds of bacteria such as lactobacillus and pediococcus (or acetobacter in the case of malt vinegar, etc.) make them go sour, and those obviously can't permeate a PET bottle. Oxidization makes foods and drinks taste "stale." In the case of beers, they can taste like cardboard. They can also take away the vibrance of hops and just overall dull the flavors malts, hops, and so on.

The effects of sunlight are an entirely different matter altogether, but that has nothing to do with the material the bottle is made out of but what color it is. It's also the reason why most beer bottles are a dark brown color. Clear bottles do not protect the contents AT ALL. Green bottles protect the contents a decent amount but can still skunk. And brown bottles block around 99% of UV light.

 

[fluketamer]

"beer and lager are not sold in PET bottles. "

I think you mean in general.

over seas they sell a lot of beer in Amber PET. i am not saying it is the ideal container but theres some debate about beer in PET.

btw if i knew these were available before i started kegging, i would have went through a lot fo miller lite to get to these $1.10 amber PET bottles which are ideal for homebrewers IMO.

for hoppy beers 100 percent they will get oxidized sooner in aPET than glass but i have a chocolate coffee nitro stout that i aged for 1 year in a amber PET 3 liter bottle that is my best ever.

ill admit it would be hard vor me to notice any oxidation or off flavors buried under all that rich chocolate coffee roasted goodness.

i like resin codes 2-4 plus PET for my homebrewing when using plastics.
.

 

[robint]

Paws a pint moment, do you not find that brewing opinionators are a mite precious?
Consider the "quaff effect" in that

Though you take a cautious sip-sniff and opine, then carry through with a manly throat-full.
Have you not, by then, forgotten your reserves on quality as they now be flattened by quantity?

This does not apply to Belgian Trappist beers btw as these are too precious for words to express - like fine art

Honestly look at some of these YT brewers' vids (ignoring the click/subs and product pushing $$$ etc) At the end usually the Promoter stands there with glass in hand taking a sample slurp, gazing at the blue yonder meaningfully for a minute or so - yada yada - doesnt that look dumb to you? Same btw as someone eating food in front of you - smacking lips - naff. Farm animal rutting - look at me that was good YUCK

I can go along with a blind test with say 6 volunteers and a score card 1-5* on some worthwhile categories aroma, sweet/bitter, mouth etc. Take a good swig then SPIT IT OUT and rinse with water allow mouth to adjust 5 mins. eg Brewer's Got Taste contest?

I found with Fullers ESB that the first gulp was a hoppy shock - but wait for the second gulp - much better and so on. My second pint I was on a roll.

 

[robint]

PET is less permeable than PP or HDPE. But the permeability of a vessel also depends on the thickness of the material. Thin PET soda bottles probably aren't suitable for long term storage of beer but lots of people (myself included) use them for short term stuff like carbonation test bottles or DIY minikegs if the whole batch won't fit in a corny. Thicker amber PET bottles like the ones that come in Mr Beer kits are fine but cost more than glass or aluminum.

As pointed out , commercial carbonated cider is often sold in 2L 3L PET bottles. Carlsberg tried it in Sweden

OBTW Aldi have launched Wine sold in PET bottles - actually these are flattened round shape, less space required and from recycled PET - rPET.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

As pointed out , commercial carbonated cider is often sold in 2L 3L PET bottles. Carlsberg tried it in Sweden
View attachment 862519


OBTW Aldi have launched Wine sold in PET bottles - actually these are flattened round shape, less space required and from recycled PET - rPET.View attachment 862520

If you're still trying to figure out if PET bottles are good for bottling I think you have got lots of advice and info to support they are. One thing to note, most cider, beer or wine sold in those bottles are meant to be one way, meaning they are not necessarily for multiple filling.

Brown glass beer bottles are the way to go for the long haul.

 

[robint]

If you're still trying to figure out if PET bottles are good for bottling I think you have got lots of advice and info to support they are. One thing to note, most cider, beer or wine sold in those bottles are meant to be one way, meaning they are not necessarily for multiple filling.

Brown glass beer bottles are the way to go for the long haul.

whole point is that PET bottles can be rinsed and reused and pressurised and they are a lot lighter than glass bottles. 2/3L soda bottles = brewers friend, thousands of them cant be wrong.
IMHO its those marketing mongrels who dont think its cool and the punter expects a glass bottle or an expensive carbon can. They sell cider and soda lemonade/pepsi/coke even sparkling water in these PET bottles. They dont make good petrol bombs nor offensive weapons for Karens

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

whole point is that PET bottles can be rinsed and reused and pressurised and they are a lot lighter than glass bottles. 2/3L soda bottles = brewers friend, thousands of them cant be wrong.
IMHO its those marketing mongrels who dont think its cool and the punter expects a glass bottle or an expensive carbon can. They sell cider and soda lemonade/pepsi/coke even sparkling water in these PET bottles. They dont make good petrol bombs nor offensive weapons for Karens

Yes, I agree, but those ones that are packaged bottles might not be suitable for multiple use. Purchasing new ones to use would be what you want to get.

 

[fluketamer]

although i completely switched from bottles to kegging , i bottled beer in 20 oz polar seltzer water bottles for 20 years. some times reusing the same bottle multple (15 or more ) times for many years.

the caps always always fail before the bottles. some caps arent as reusable as others.

heres a 4 year old stout that was kept in a polar PET bottle that tasted good . that bottle was prolly purchased in 2010 and reused at least a dozen or more times. the cap looks original.

i still do a lot in PET .

i have 2 and 3 liter PET amber growlers that i still use often.

its great for split batches mini batches experiments etc.

i aged a stout for a year in a PET bottle and its my best ever.

i am not saying i would ever use it for any kind of hoppy beer.

except for very short term consumption.

but i just realized all this is getting way off topic.

 

[robint]

@fluketamer No Bro you are right on message

its others who invent issues with no foundation or verifiable justification but MIGHT cause a problem - naysayer

IMHO Lager may be a problem cos the average product is such thin weedy fizzy water that the slightest additional flavour might stick up your nose. Note this shouldnt apply to a traditional British Beer with it real fullsome flavour

Just look at those neat flat wine PET bottles above - fit in my pocket job - eh?

 

[Broken Crow]

@fluketamer No Bro you are right on message

its others who invent issues with no foundation or verifiable justification but MIGHT cause a problem - naysayer

IMHO Lager may be a problem cos the average product is such thin weedy fizzy water that the slightest additional flavour might stick up your nose. Note this shouldnt apply to a traditional British Beer with it real fullsome flavour

Just look at those neat flat wine PET bottles above - fit in my pocket job - eh?

Yeah..that's PET. The box at the top is neither PET nor HDPE. As to

"food safe" BPA free

..I've had beer made in such vessels years ago.. It tasted like new-plastic, a taste I rediscovered when I first began brewing my own and used "food-grade BPA free" hoses. I quickly replaced the cheap hoses with Bevlex 200 and while I got rid of the plastic taste, I discovered what O2-permeable material tasted like and have since moved on.
Saving a buck is great, but as to a fermenter; You'll save more in not just time, effort and cash in the long run by sticking to the economical tested and true fermenters.
I heartily recommend shelling out for either a Fermzilla or a Fermonster (https://www.geterbrewed.com/fermonster-carboy-23-litres-with-tap/) ..you can always mod the fermonster later https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...lete-closed-transfer-system-for-cheap.680992/

 

[mac_1103]

Yeah..that's PET. The box at the top is neither PET nor HDPE.

I've had beer made in such vessels years ago.. It tasted like new-plastic, a taste I rediscovered when I first began brewing my own and used "food-grade BPA free" hoses.

Stop trying to confuse the issue with facts and experience.

 

[Ninoid]

I bought a 30 liter PP food plastic fruit barrel with a cap and airlock for 35 euros in an agricultural store. There is also a version with a faucet, but I don't want to use a faucet because it is difficult to keep clean, it leaks, and quite a bit of beer remains in the fermenter. If it is properly maintained (doesn't scratch the inside), I can do about fifty batch of beer in it.

PET plastic is not good for multiple use, and it also lets air in because it is not dense enough. If you try the same commercial beer from glass and plastic bottles, they do not taste the same. The one from the plastic bottle seems stale.

 

[mac_1103]

PET plastic is not good for multiple use, and it also lets air in because it is not dense enough.

The world is full of PET fermenters. Oxygen permeability is very similar to PP and better than HDPE, as has already been mentioned.

 

[Ninoid]

The world is full of PET fermenters. Oxygen permeability is very similar to PP and better than HDPE, as has already been mentioned.

Maybe we don't mean the same plastic? I'm referring to the PET plastic used to sell bottled water and juices.

 

[day_trippr]

"PET plastic, or polyethylene terephthalate, is a thermoplastic polymer resin and a type of polyester that's often used for packaging food and beverages"

 

[robint]

Thing is that earlier poor experiences from 5 or more years ago have moved on since then as we became more aware of such things as BPA and O2 air spoilage etc. So I feel we should concentrate on current knowledge.
PET is well known and has its advocates. Also BPA free Polypropylene is now favoured and economically available.
Small homebrewers cant lash out on Stainless gear $$$$ and space is often limited.
So its horses for courses HFC or whatever floats your boat WFYB

Brew on baby.

 

[mac_1103]

Maybe we don't mean the same plastic? I'm referring to the PET plastic used to sell bottled water and juices.

There's only one PET plastic. Thickness matters for permeability of course. And it can be modified, as with the Kegland Oxebar products. FerMonsters are PET. Fermzillas are PET. Big Mouth Bubblers are PET (unless they're glass).

No plastic can be expected to last as long as stainless steel of course, but that's a whole different conversation. The most important thing with any plastic fermenter IMO is to avoid scratching the inside when cleaning, as this will give infections a place to hide.