Is there a consensus on hop stand bitterness calculations

[olotti]

I plan on hop standing my pale ale and am confused at where to add the hops into beersmith. After searching it seems some say add it at the 20 min mark and others are lower like 6 min. Imo it seems 20 min is a bit much as I can't believe a wort cooled to 160-180 will draw out the same bitterness a 20 min addition would at full boil of 212 deg. Any advice on where to add this. The last come couple beers I did I just left it at 0 and they didn't seem overly bitter and that was using high aa hops for a 30 min hop stand.

 

[Calichusetts]

I gave up trying to figure out the hopstand additions in beersmith. Some of my old recipes went IBU crazy with the update. I calculate them as 1 minute additions, but I don't do hop stands for very long, 10-15 minutes

 

[olotti]

I gave up trying to figure out the hopstand additions in beersmith. Some of my old recipes went IBU crazy with the update. I calculate them as 1 minute additions, but I don't do hop stands for very long, 10-15 minutes

I'm kinda with ya. Some people say 20 min I think that's way overdoing it but that's me personally so I've been putting them in at 1 min just so the recipe accounts for some ibus.

 

[AnOldUR]

Depends on how fast you're going from a boil to 170 or so degrees. Without that number as part of the calculation you'll never get it right. More importantly is realizing that not only does this effect your flame-out hops, but it also increases the bittering from all your hop additions.

Until studies are done and accurate formulas developed, the best you can do is be consistent and base your additions on perceived bitterness.

 

[olotti]

Depends on how fast you're going from a boil to 170 or so degrees. Without that number as part of the calculation you'll never get it right. More importantly is realizing that not only does this effect your flame-out hops, but it also increases the bittering from all your hop additions.

Until studies are done and accurate formulas developed, the best you can do is be consistent and base your additions on perceived bitterness.

I use a hop spider so at flame out I pull the spider and dump out those hops let the wort cool then add the hopstand addition. That way I'm not pulling any bitterness from the boil hop additions

 

[ncbrewer]

Depends on how fast you're going from a boil to 170 or so degrees. Without that number as part of the calculation you'll never get it right. More importantly is realizing that not only does this effect your flame-out hops, but it also increases the bittering from all your hop additions.

Until studies are done and accurate formulas developed, the best you can do is be consistent and base your additions on perceived bitterness.

I got some second hand info that applying a 0.5 factor (i.e. a 30 minute hop stand being equivalent to 15 minute boil) is a good guideline. I used your method of comparing to perceived bitterness and decided that a 0.3 factor seems about right for me. I start my hop stand at 180F. I am also applying the same factor to the boiling hop additions for extending the boil time.

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

I'm in a related place, as I do no chill. I use a lot of no-chill cube hops, where you just throw the hops in with the boiling wort into your sealed container. The next day, or next month, you transfer to your fermenter and pitch your yeast.

So, the hops start out at near boiling, and over the course of a few hours get below the temp where any isomerization happens. Somebody did an experiment once, I can't find the link right now, where he actually measured IBU in a lab. He decided that no-chill hops act like a 25 minute addition.

I use 25 minutes for calculation, but I haven't tested it. I think my beers end up right around where they should. Sometimes I use nothing but the no-chill hops, and the beers get a really neat flavor and bitterness profile.

Its a little different than your case of hop standing, but it is at least something. Another place to look is Kal's website. He did a big no-chill taste test a couple years? ago.

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26503

 

[Malty_Dog]

Beersmith handles it for you if you're OK with that: http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/11/26/beersmith-2-2-desktop-released/

"Support for Steeped/Whirlpool Hop IBUs and Unfermentable Items
After quite a bit of research, I’ve finally added IBU contributions for steeped/whirlpool hops. If you mark a hop addition as steep/whirlpool it will now estimate the hop IBU contribution from that addition. The default is to add approximately half the IBU contribution of a similar boil time hops based on a steep/whirlpool temperature of 90 C, though you can alter that percentage in the Options->Bitterness tab."

If Brad Smith, PhD did "quite a bit of research" and its good enough for him, then its sure as heck good enough for me.

 

[rodwha]

I thought there wasn't any real IBU addition, that it more like a dry hop that was locked in better due to the heat, but that did seem to add hop flavors too.

I intend to do my first whirlpool soon, and without that calculated in my IPA is targeted for 104 IBU's.

 

[ncbrewer]

I thought there wasn't any real IBU addition, that it more like a dry hop that was locked in better due to the heat, but that did seem to add hop flavors too.

I intend to do my first whirlpool soon, and without that calculated in my IPA is targeted for 104 IBU's.

I've made some pale ales that only got 10 IBU's from the boiling hops and the rest from the hopstand - they came out about right. That makes me believe the hop stand adds some bitterness.

 

[edroberts]

I thought there wasn't any real IBU addition, that it more like a dry hop that was locked in better due to the heat, but that did seem to add hop flavors too.

I intend to do my first whirlpool soon, and without that calculated in my IPA is targeted for 104 IBU's.

Hop isomerization continues until you drop below the 170 degree F range. Hence, you still will draw IBUs out of any hops still in the kettle. However, I don't know how much the action of the boil or higher temperature makes with regards to isomerization. I think this is what Brad Smith tried to handle in BeerSmith. If your chiller takes 10 minutes to drop below this temperature, you're still adding your IBU and (in theory) would need to account for this time in your calculations.

 

[rodwha]

Hmmm...

Why is the IBU contribution something like 1/4 to 1/2 of what it would be were it boiling? Is the isomeritization (spl?) slower when it cools? And why wait until it's below 180*?

What is the lowest point at which a whirlpool works? 170*? Is it critical?

With the BIPA I'll be making I won't be too concerned if I get additional IBU's, though I've been told it can't go beyond about 100. But if I can add more flavor and/or aroma I'll be happy. And with a very small bittering addition it can certainly handle a little extra bitterness I'd think.

 

[edroberts]

What is the lowest point at which a whirlpool works? 170*? Is it critical?

For any real isomeritization, I'd estimate around 170-175. I wouldn't say it's critical stop point, but it drops off rather quickly. However, you will still extract hop oils below 170 and also have less chance of vaporizing them out the cooler you go. As you get below 150, hop oils become slowly less soluble and more difficult/take more time to extract.

 

[bobbrews]

I have always heard the 180F was the point at which isomerization grinds to a halt. You might get a negligible amount of IBUs. I have never conducted laboratory tests on the matter. All I know is that my 30 minute minimum hopstands work wonders for me. Combined with an adequate dryhop, you really get that pleasant hop flavor and aroma that is missing vs. if you were to simply do a quick flameout addition followed by a quick cool.

This is the reason I went from Ice Baths to Coil Chiller back to Ice Baths. Ice Baths allow me to gradually cool the wort down while the hopstand still has time to work for me. I pitch the aroma steep hops at 180F and let the wort cool down to pitch temps slowly over the course of 30-40 minutes on average, sometimes longer. I never have acrid bitterness or harsh abrasive IPAs despite using a ton of hops and never FWH'ing.

Worrying so much about IBUs is self-limiting as a brewer of hoppy beer styles. There is much more to take into account concerning the recipe as a whole than the number of IBUs. Up to a point, and if the entire recipe makes sense, IBUs don't even matter anymore since the human palate cannot perceive anything greater than about 90 IBUs.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Up to a point, IBUs don't even matter anymore since the human palate cannot perceive anything greater than about 90 IBUs.

Basically I would go with this. If your DIPA is already going to be above 80-90IBUs from regular bitter/aroma boil additions, it almost doesn't matter what the IBU contribution of the whirlpool/hopstand is other than sausage waving. Unless you have a friend that says "I won't drink a DIPA that doesnt have at least 120IBUs" then just scribble on the label with a crayon "120IBUs".

I have a hoppy brown ale I did with EKGs and fuggles and did a 20 minute whirlpool/hopstand at 170ish. 1oz eah of EKGs and Fuggles, I calculated them as contributing zero IBUs. Served some during a homebrew club meeting Saturday. Not a single person in my club is a big hop head, every single one thought it was tasty and not very bitter even though calculated at 45IBUs with a final gravity of 1.010. So I would put a strong indicator on the under 175F theres probably not a ton of isomerization going on.

I think my next IPA/DIPA I will do 60IBUs with something clean like warrior. Do a single addition at 2 minutes with some citra, then go to town with 4-5oz of citra in a similar hopstand/whirlpool schedule as my hoppy brown and see if it comes off super acrid/bitter (60IBUs generally is pleasant to me, pushing 80 it starts to not be as enjoyable).

 

[bobbrews]

(60IBUs generally is pleasant to me, pushing 80 it starts to not be as enjoyable).

Is Heady Topper enjoyable to you? Because it is more than 80 IBUs.

 

[rodwha]

I don't want to hijack the thread but my BIPA is only 5.9% ABV. My 70-80 IBU IPA's just didn't have the same punch that most commercial IPA's seem to have so I've lowered the bittering addition and ramped up the flavor/aroma additions and worked towards 100+ IBU's. So it's not the number itself I'm concerned with but the intense flavor profile I seem to lack.

I had been told some time back about whirlpooling but just hadn't done so. Now's the time...

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Is Heady Topper enjoyable to you? Because it is more than 80 IBUs.

I would have to try it to say for sure wether or not I like Heady Topper. I have on the other hand tried a lot of 80+ IBU IPAs/DIPAs and find that all I can taste is bitter, I cannot pick out any malt complexity or hop aromas/flavors. Just tastes like a big glass of bitter. But I am probably sensitive to bitterness, so I am only speaking from my personal tastes. I am always willing to try anything but my experience says that 80+ I probably will not be able to pick out anything in the beer other than the bitterness.

 

[rodwha]

If a whirlpool still adds bitterness why bother with it and just do the typical flavor addition? I'm confused as to why this is done as I was initially under the impression that it did not contribute the IBU's but did give a better aroma that was locked in better than a dry hop.

Below 170* is it just adding aroma without bitterness?

Is the flavor preserved as well as a typical flavor addition?

 

[olotti]

I started hop standing awhile ago and I swear it adds to flavor and aroma so I always do it for my IPAs and apa's maybe it's a placebo idk because I always do atleast a 3-4 oz dry hop fro my five gal batches, that's all I do, and I always have a huge hop aroma and flavor. So it's either because of the hop stand or a combo of the two. I really never
Taste any extra bitterness with a hop stand and I do 30-45 min hop stands. For me it works I just posed the original question just out of curiosity incase any info had come out about adding bitterness Beersmith still calculates a hopstand/whirlpool as 0 ibus.

 

[Malty_Dog]

Beersmith still calculates a hopstand/whirlpool as 0 ibus.

????

Beersmith handles it for you if you're OK with that: http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/11/26/beersmith-2-2-desktop-released/

"Support for Steeped/Whirlpool Hop IBUs and Unfermentable Items
After quite a bit of research, I’ve finally added IBU contributions for steeped/whirlpool hops. If you mark a hop addition as steep/whirlpool it will now estimate the hop IBU contribution from that addition. The default is to add approximately half the IBU contribution of a similar boil time hops based on a steep/whirlpool temperature of 90 C, though you can alter that percentage in the Options->Bitterness tab."

If Brad Smith, PhD did "quite a bit of research" and its good enough for him, then its sure as heck good enough for me.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Wouldn't the best option to test this is do, for example, do a 2 1-gallon batches. Do a mash and get 2ish gallons of 1.045ish wort. Split them into separate kettles. Bring Beer A to a boil add an addition of 1oz of whatever hops, boil it for 20 minutes and cool. Bring Beer B to a boil and boil for 20 minutes, begin whirlpool and add 1oz of hops (of course we want the same AA% and variety of hops for Beer B).

Get them tested by a lab and see what the IBUs are. They should be fairly close, say if Beer A was 20IBUs Beer B should be like 10IBUs. Or near enough as to make no difference. Could add a third 1gallon example that you cool to 175F before adding the whirlpool addition. Presumably this should register almost no IBUs.

That is if its really really important to know the IBU contribution of your whirlpool additions for yourself. I'll go with what the PhDs say, I'll do my whirlpool additions sub-175F and not worry too much about the IBU contribution of my whirlpool.

 

[rodwha]

The IBU's it may add don't concern me too much. I'm just after a large hop presence.

As it turns out I made a mistake and ordered 8 packs of 2 oz Centennial hops instead of 8 oz total. I'll toss an extra 2 oz in for the whirlpool and for the dry hop! Now the whirlpool addition has 1/2 oz Columbus and 4 oz of Centennial. Maybe this will be the hop bomb I've been trying to brew up...