Is no rolling boil bad?

[Maegnar]

Hello,

I'm not quite new to the topic of brewing, but this has bugged me since I have started.
I'm boiling my beers on a induction stove-top in my 28 L pot. But I have never been able to get the beer to start rolling boil. I get to ~95C and that's it. I think that my stove-top isn't just powerful enough to get 28 L of liquid to 100C. And my question is - is that a bad thing? Am I potentially loosing on some process, or efficiency here? (i.e hop AA extraction is lower)

Thanks

 

[Queequeg]

Not reaching a boil could mean no hot break.

 

[poptarts]

and dms all up in yo beer, or so people say.

 

[flars]

Hello,

I'm not quite new to the topic of brewing, but this has bugged me since I have started.
I'm boiling my beers on a induction stove-top in my 28 L pot. But I have never been able to get the beer to start rolling boil. I get to ~95C and that's it. I think that my stove-top isn't just powerful enough to get 28 L of liquid to 100C. And my question is - is that a bad thing? Am I potentially loosing on some process, or efficiency here? (i.e hop AA extraction is lower)

Thanks

Do you have the lid on the kettle when you start the boil? Have you tried your recipes with a partial boil and then top off the fermentor with chilled water?
Does your boil kettle have a flat bottom?

 

[Maegnar]

I have a lid and it helps only barely
I have not tried to do a partial boil. Doesn't that require to have a higher OG of the wort, to then have an option to water it down? I'm not sure how to get higher OG with less water, except from boiling out the water
My boil kettle does not have a flat bottom. the outside "ring" of the bottom actually touches the cook-top, and the middle of the bottom does not.

 

[BryceL]

To answer your question, yes a good boil is important for several reasons. Hop extraction and boiling of compounds such as dms to name a couple. You could look into building a heat stick. Do a search and you should find some threads on it.

 

[flars]

A partial boil, lets say one-half the volume of your recipe, will have a higher OG in the boil kettle. The OG in your fermentor after topping off with chilled water should be fairly close to your recipe OG as if it were a full boil.

I would also recommend finding a flat bottom kettle which will increase your heat transfer efficiency. Mine is a 5.5 gallon stainless steel stock pot with an encapsulated aluminum disk in the bottom from Walmart. Also doubles for our boiled corned beef and cabbbage on St. Patricks day.

 

[fearwig]

and dme all up in yo beer, or so people say.

Maybe even LME!

DMS is going to boil off whether you hit exactly the boiling temp of water or not, and it sounds like you're close. You can adjust for hop utilization (to taste) and you can adjust for boil-off volume. It could make following recipes slightly harder, but if you are happy with the result, who can complain?

Don't use a lid, though, or DMS may condense back into your wort, and then what's the point?

Since you're on induction you can use heat resistant insulation, if you don't already. Some people swear by it.

 

[Epimetheus]

The absolute necessity of a strong rolling boil is up for debate.
The wort needs to be circulated for the proteins to collide, join, become larger, and fall to the bottom.
DMS is removed as a vapor, therefore, the wort must exceed the vapor point of DMS.

In How to Brew, john Palmer states:
"If the wort is cooled slowly these compounds will not be removed from the wort and will dissolve back in. Thus it is important to not completely cover the brewpot during the boil or allow condensate to drip back into the pot from the lid. The wort should also be cooled quickly after the boil, either by immersing in an ice bath or using a wort chiller."

He says not to cover the brew pot entirely. I have made DMS-free (no detectable DMS) brews on the stovetop by boiling with the pot mostly covered. Just like you, my kettle would not boil at all if the lid was off entirely.

Opposing the view of cooling quickly, there is the no-chill method wher 212F wort at the end of the boil is transferred to a sealed water bag, and allowed to cool over a day or three. This was championed in Australia and results in beer where the DMS is undetectable.

The is a new automatic brewing machine for small batches, about $1500. The temperature never quite reaches 212F and it depends on circulating the wort to encourage DMS to evaporate and the proteins to coagulate.

Any statement that beer MUST be brewed THEIR way should be considered opinion, not fact.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

Its also important for alpha acid isomorisation and boil off.

Rolling boil mixes the hops around more. Isomorisation occurs above 82C but if I remember correctly utilization is effected by increased heat as well as longer boil time.

If you cant get the temp high enogh, then boil longer. You are probably going to have to do that anyway for proper boil off.

Also. DMS can be reduced by clean copper in the boil or fermentor.

 

[chrisonye1]

Not having a rolling boil can cause many problems like not hitting target gravity or volume.putting a lid is probably the worse thing you can do (maybe only have the lid on tell you hit boi)l. Partial boils is another terrible idea you will never be able to duplicate or creat the beer you had in mind. Honestly the best thing to do is upgrade to a turkey burner beacue what youn are doing will make it hard to progress.QUOTE=Maegnar;5689346]I have a lid and it helps only barely
I have not tried to do a partial boil. Doesn't that require to have a higher OG of the wort, to then have an option to water it down? I'm not sure how to get higher OG with less water, except from boiling out the water
My boil kettle does not have a flat bottom. the outside "ring" of the bottom actually touches the cook-top, and the middle of the bottom does not.[/QUOTE]

 

[Zinc_Saucier]

Partial boils is another terrible idea you will never be able to duplicate or creat the beer you had in mind.

Wow! That's a strong statement, and I completely disagree. I haven't been brewing for two long (~1yr) but have made the transition from basic extract kits to partial mash to AG over 20+ batches. It is possible to make very good (great?) beer using the partial boil method.

 

[DrWill]

Wow! That's a strong statement, and I completely disagree. I haven't been brewing for two long (~1yr) but have made the transition from basic extract kits to partial mash to AG over 20+ batches. It is possible to make very good (great?) beer using the partial boil method.

I'm with Zinc_Saucier here. Partial wort boils will give you great results if you do them well. You'll need to increase your hopping rate in order to compensate for the increased gravity, but aside from that, your process will be essentially the same. Make sure that your top up water is sanitary (e.g. Boiled and cooled) and you will get good results.

 

[DrWill]

Hello,

I'm not quite new to the topic of brewing, but this has bugged me since I have started.
I'm boiling my beers on a induction stove-top in my 28 L pot. But I have never been able to get the beer to start rolling boil. I get to ~95C and that's it. I think that my stove-top isn't just powerful enough to get 28 L of liquid to 100C. And my question is - is that a bad thing? Am I potentially loosing on some process, or efficiency here? (i.e hop AA extraction is lower)

Thanks

There's been some good advice in the thread already. Some of the best are considering a partial wort boil (you may only need to bring the volume down by 4-6 litres, but it may be more), leaving the lid on until you reach boil (it takes less energy to maintain a boil than it does to reach it, if I understand correctly), and looking at your kettle geometry.

Remember that your boil doesn't need to insane. As long as wort is transferring between different regions of your kettle, you're generally ok. Isomerisation happens at a temperatures well below 95°c. You're still killing the nasties that might be present, you're still producing some melanoidins, you're still getting rid of DMS precursors, and you're still concentrating the wort. Those are some of the most important things a boil does.

 

[HopSong]

Don't leave the lid on or DMS won't escape.. unless you like corn flavored beer. Do consider buying an outdoor burner. After Thanksgiving (and even before) people sell turkey fryers on Craigslist. The burner will take care of your boil problems. Despite what some people say.. you don't need a stainless pot.. altho they are preferable in a couple of ways. Also you Don't need a heavy boil.. just a nice rolling boil as others have said.

 

[DrWill]

Do consider buying an outdoor burner. After Thanksgiving (and even before) people sell turkey fryers on Craigslist.

I'm afraid thanksgiving turkeys aren't really traditional in Lithuania. I don't think there's a local Craigslist either.

 

[helibrewer]

I believe you are fine. If you are doing extract brewing DMS is a non-issue, it's taken care of during the creation of the extract. Hops isomerize well below boiling and the hot break forms before boiling also. You just have to figure out your evaporation rate so you can adjust your volumes accordingly. I would rather do a "soft" full boil than a rolling partial boil.

 

[johnnv]

A rolling boil does a couple of things. It concentrates the wort for a higher OG, most importantly it boils of unwanted esters and other compounds that can cause off flavors. A rolling boil with the lid off the preferred method. Get a gas burner and LP tank.

 

[WileECoyote]

I have a lid and it helps only barely
I have not tried to do a partial boil. Doesn't that require to have a higher OG of the wort, to then have an option to water it down? I'm not sure how to get higher OG with less water, except from boiling out the water
My boil kettle does not have a flat bottom. the outside "ring" of the bottom actually touches the cook-top, and the middle of the bottom does not.

You really need a new kettle with a flat bottom, the more contact with your stove will help.

How have your beers been turning out the way your making them?

Cheers

 

[BadMrFrosty]

The most relevant point is do you like your beers? If you do then who gives a crap if you get a rolling boil or not? Also there is no law that you have to do fixed size batches, if the boil really concerns you just do the maximum sized batch that you stove can handle.

 

[DrWill]

The most relevant point is do you like your beers? If you do then who gives a crap if you get a rolling boil or not? Also there is no law that you have to do fixed size batches, if the boil really concerns you just do the maximum sized batch that you stove can handle.

You are dead right on both counts. If the beer is good, don't sweat it. If a 15l batch is all the stove can handle, that works too!

 

[chrisonye1]

Wow! That's a strong statement, and I completely disagree. I haven't been brewing for two long (~1yr) but have made the transition from basic extract kits to partial mash to AG over 20+ batches. It is possible to make very good (great?) beer using the partial boil method.

The main reason we boil besides hops is to sanatize strip the wort of impurities such as chlorine bacteria and much. More when u add water your are adding what you tried so hard to get rid of. If you do this method use sink water and boil it for at least 20 mins. You can make great beer with partial boil but you are. loosing control of the final product and may never be able to duplicate this beer. I am all abbout controlling the brew

 

[DrWill]

You can make great beer with partial boil but you are. loosing control of the final product and may never be able to duplicate this beer. I am all abbout controlling the brew

How are you losing control? Doing a partial wort boil is just as in control as a full wort boil. You just have to understand some basics of brewing science and it can be done well and will be perfectly duplicable. The math is all the same. If you're a good brewer, there's no reason you can't make world class beer with a partial wort boil.

 

[chrisonye1]

How are you losing control? Doing a partial wort boil is just as in control as a full wort boil. You just have to understand some basics of brewing science and it can be done well and will be perfectly duplicable. The math is all the same. If you're a good brewer, there's no reason you can't make world class beer with a partial wort boil.

you always want to boil. the full wart adding water likei said. Is go to add unwanted chlorine and fluoride both toxic to yeast...... and if you add distilled water you are not getting. The minirels like calcium that yeast need to live a healthy yeast. When you add water to a boiled wort you are putting the. Guess to what the ppm of whatever is in your water even if you do water modifications boiling your wort is all about making a sanitary and happy inviroment for your yest. When you add the unknown you loose controll

 

[DrWill]

you always want to boil. the full wart adding water likei said. Is go to add unwanted chlorine and fluoride both toxic to yeast...... and if you add distilled water you are not getting. The minirels like calcium that yeast need to live a healthy yeast. When you add water to a boiled wort you are putting the. Guess to what the ppm of whatever is in your water even if you do water modifications boiling your wort is all about making a sanitary and happy inviroment for your yest. When you add the unknown you loose controll

I'm afraid you're not making any sense. If you boil your top up water, it's no different from boiling it with your wort. The boiled and cooled top up water is exactly the same as the water in your boiling wort. It's just as sanitary and has just the same mineral content. There's nothing unknown about it if you take care. It is no different from any other ingredient.

Boiling 28l of water is not different from boiling 18l of water and 10l of water. As I said you'll need to adjust your hopping to take into account the different utilisation rates due to the difference in wort gravity, but beyond that there is absolutely no difference.

 

[MarcusKillion]

them people who make that fancy beer making machine they sell on kickstarter say boiling is not needed . Beer experts from breweries tasting their beer seem to agree . That machine only gets to 210 I think it is .

Just sayin' ...

How about you just taste that beer you made and let us know if boiling is needed or not

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

them people who make that fancy beer making machine they sell on kickstarter say boiling is not needed . Beer experts from breweries tasting their beer seem to agree . That machine only gets to 210 I think it is .

Just sayin' ...

How about you just taste that beer you made and let us know if boiling is needed or not

What fancy machine? You're saying they don't boil at all? So either they use pasteurized extract and hop oils or they make wild yeast fermented malt liquor.

OP. If you lived in the mountains your boiling temp would be about 95c and though it would have a rolling boil.

Figure out your hourly boil off and adjust ypur boil time. If you use beersmith this can be done quite easily.

 

[Maegnar]

Wow, so many answers thanks guys (and girls, if any)
I should have mentioned earlier that I do AG brews, not extracts.
To answer some of the questions, I was covering the lid and will know better not to. I do like my beers and some of them have even won a couple of medals in the local HB competitions
I am considering to buy a flat bottom stainless steel pot, but they cost a small fortune and I can't let myself currently buy one. I will research on the turkey friers, as I have an option of shipping from UK, if the price is right.
I will probably lower the volumes to 15 l for now, to get a better boil, while I search for new cooking pot.

 

[johnnv]

I don't know what is available in Lithuania, Stainless is best for brewing, don't use aluminum, copper is very good for a boil kettle, don't use copper in a fermenter. The metal cooking pots with the ceramic coating are used by many people and inexpensive.
If you have a restaurant supply store, check them out.
Good luck, cheers

 

[Odin_Brews]

You might be able to find a 'weck einkochautomat', I don't know what they'd call it in Lithuania but they're popular in the alps for gluhwein. THat's what I use for 22L batches, takes a while to get to boil and it's not overly vigorous, but I have a nice hot break and enjoy my beer. You could also find one of these and hang it in the pot you have

 

[DrWill]

I don't know what is available in Lithuania, Stainless is best for brewing, don't use aluminum, copper is very good for a boil kettle, don't use copper in a fermenter. The metal cooking pots with the ceramic coating are used by many people and inexpensive.
If you have a restaurant supply store, check them out.
Good luck, cheers

Aluminium is just fine for a boil kettle or HLT.

 

[johnnv]

DrWill, I am not trying to be argumentative, do some research on the effects of aluminum absorbed in the body. People use products for example that are bad for you such as baking powder with aluminum added, or underarm deodorant containing aluminum oxide. Continual cooking of any kind in aluminum can cause problems. One of the big ones is early stages of Alzheimers. If I could only remember what else, LOL.

 

[DrWill]

DrWill, I am not trying to be argumentative, do some research on the effects of aluminum absorbed in the body. People use products for example that are bad for you such as baking powder with aluminum added, or underarm deodorant containing aluminum oxide. Continual cooking of any kind in aluminum can cause problems. One of the big ones is early stages of Alzheimers. If I could only remember what else, LOL.

I'm afraid you've bought into an urban legend, John.

If those legends were correct, we'd all have Alzheimer's by now since aluminum is used in cooking pots in almost ever restaurant in the world. (Oh no! Maybe we do and haven't noticed!)

Once that passive oxide layer forms you're getting next to zero aluminium in your beer. John Palmer writes:

"There is more aluminum in a common antacid tablet than would be present in a batch of beer made in an aluminum pot."

It's perfectly safe and makes a great brewing vessel.

 

[NivekD]

DrWill, I am not trying to be argumentative, do some research on the effects of aluminum absorbed in the body. People use products for example that are bad for you such as baking powder with aluminum added, or underarm deodorant containing aluminum oxide. Continual cooking of any kind in aluminum can cause problems. One of the big ones is early stages of Alzheimers. If I could only remember what else, LOL.

WHOA!!!...let's not open that can o worms again please...

 

[FATC1TY]

DrWill, I am not trying to be argumentative, do some research on the effects of aluminum absorbed in the body. People use products for example that are bad for you such as baking powder with aluminum added, or underarm deodorant containing aluminum oxide. Continual cooking of any kind in aluminum can cause problems. One of the big ones is early stages of Alzheimers. If I could only remember what else, LOL.

You can google it and find the real info on it, but you've been duped by old folklore and fear mongering.

Aluminum is fine for brewing, and cooking. Oxidized layer will completely seal it up after the first use and it's perfectly fine.

SS is easier to clean, but aluminum works just as good for a low cost alternative.

 

[Maegnar]

Aluminium is not a ferrometal, so not really an option with the induction cook-top. Unless an external heating element is used, like the one a few replies above.

 

[Hackwood]

I'm afraid you're not making any sense. If you boil your top up water, it's no different from boiling it with your wort. The boiled and cooled top up water is exactly the same as the water in your boiling wort. It's just as sanitary and has just the same mineral content. There's nothing unknown about it if you take care. It is no different from any other ingredient.

Boiling 28l of water is not different from boiling 18l of water and 10l of water. As I said you'll need to adjust your hopping to take into account the different utilisation rates due to the difference in wort gravity, but beyond that there is absolutely no difference.

You can't understand him for that reason and I just can't understand him because of all the extra periods and run-ons in his sentences?!?!?!?!

 

[DrWill]

Aluminium is not a ferrometal, so not really an option with the induction cook-top. Unless an external heating element is used, like the one a few replies above.

I would think this would make contact with the "burner" even more important. I missed this important detail. Sorry!

 

[johnnv]

NivikD If you don't think health and safety is an issue worth discussing in brewing, I certainly don't want any of your beer.

DrWill, I don't all ways agree with John Palmer, He has co written a couple of books and is knowledgeable about brewing, but he is not the absolute authority. I have seen many studies that support my statement, on aluminum and it's no urban legend. The studies at least offer enough information to pay attention.

That's my opinion and your certainly are entitled to yours.
I brew with Stainless, Thank you!
I don't breath asbestos, (it was considered harmless 50 years ago)

 

[DrWill]

The statement that aluminum is dangerous to brew in is simply nonsense. Full stop.