Is my beer line too short?

[badmajon]

So I successfully force carbed my keg in 2 1/2 days by raising the psi to triple the set and forget level, now I have a new problem. At equlibrium level (12 psi) I cannot get more than foam. I lower the pressure to 3-4 psi and it works fine, I get a nice glass of beer.

Now, someone told me that you need 10 feet of beer line for 12 psi for it to pour nice. Is this true? If so, why the hell did Keg Connection sell me 5 feet of beer line!?!?

 

[wildwest450]

You over carbonated, plain and simple. Your foaming problems will not end for long by dropping the psi. The c02 will come out of suspension and you will have bubbles in your beer line. The best thing to do is set it at the proper psi for the temp and level of carbonation, and let it be, it will take a few days to level out.

You can occasionally, shut off the gas and bleed the keg off, that will help get rid of the excess co2. There is NO quick fix, be patient. Longer lines may help in the future, but many people use them to mask problems, not fix them.

 

[badmajon]

I don't think thats it though, when I purge the co2 and lower the PSI to 3 or 4 the beer is fine, it doesn't taste overcarbonated. In fact, I was curious when I first got the keg and tried dispensing the flat beer at the same psi and viola, foamy beer.

 

[shortyjacobs]

I don't think you overcarbed. I carbonate at 34 PSI for 60 hrs, (NO SHAKING), then serve at 11-12 PSI.

When I did this with 5' lines from KegConnection, foam city. When I swapped them out for 10' lines, (3/16", thick wall, bev line), it became PERFECT.

Don't be a cheapo and buy another 5' for each line and splice them together with barbs. The barbs will make more foam than the 5' did. I say buy new longer lines.

 

[wildwest450]

I don't think thats it though, when I purge the co2 and lower the PSI to 3 or 4 the beer is fine, it doesn't taste overcarbonated. In fact, I was curious when I first got the keg and tried dispensing the flat beer at the same psi and viola, foamy beer.

Slaps forehead and walks away. Maybe Bobby M can say the exact same thing I said, and you'll believe him.

 

[WAdamC]

I agree with WW. Overcarbed. I don't keg yet, and I'm no Bobby M, but i do trust WW and Bobby's advice. So there.

 

[MBasile]

At 12 PSI, 5-6' of 3/16" line should pour just fine. Try this though...

1) Open the tap (into a glass) for just a few seconds.
2) Drink the few ounces that came out in those few seconds
3) Wait 30 seconds
4) Pour full glass of beer

If this works, it simply means that your beer lines/taps are getting too warm to allow for smooth pouring after the lines have been sitting for a day. Why don't bars have to do this? Because they pour enough through the taps to keep them cooled.

And, FWIW, I'm running ~12PSI through 3/16" line from MicroMatic, which is supposed to have a resistance of 3PSI/Ft but is actually a lot closer to 2PSI/Ft. My point is that you can listen to advice all day long, but it isn't going to replace experimentation with your setup.

 

[wildwest450]

Ok, I took a deep breath, now i'm back. To correctly answer your question we need more info. What temp is it being carbonated at? What is your desired volumes of c02 (or beer style)?

Also, if your beer is over carbed and you turn down the pressure to serve, your beer will taste flat(over time). That's because you need to MATCH the co2 pressure in the keg with the pressure from the c02 bottle. That's why your taking a chance when you force carb at high psi's. And when you don't have the proper equilibrium, your co2 will "break" out of the beer, and cause a flat foamy beer, and a hundred feet of line won't cure that. I run 6 feet on all my taps and never have problems. But thats because I learned to properly carb a beer.

 

[Bobby_M]

Let's not give much credence to authority here. It's probably a combination of both issues. I can already tell you that 5 feet of line is too short unless you're serving Bitters at 9psi and/or your faucet is 4 feet higher than the keg. People like serving at different temps too so that has to be considered. I serve at 41F and around 12psi. At colder temps you can get away with lower pressures and therefore shorter lines. Start solving the problem by getting 10 feet of line. From there, you might be overcarbed a bit, but you'll figure that out after you change your lines. If you have a picnic faucet on there now, try pouring with the glass and faucet held up as high as you can reach.

Bottom line, plenty of people have success with shorter lines but running the shortest length you can get away with doesn't win you a prize. A few extra feet, even if it's not necessary, will cost you an extra 3 seconds of pouring time and about a dollafitty.

Oh, and I agree trying to carb in a couple days is not the best idea if you want consistency.

 

[MW66]

I asked Bobby M the same question about 2 weeks ago. I went to my LHBS and they only had 12'. So, I made two lines of 6' each. However, I also put in two of those plastic corkscrew mixer nozzles (74695A58 BAYONET MIXER NOZZLE, 5.3"L, 1/4" BLUNT TIP) from McMaster Carr. Now, I have both kegs at 15psi and it pours like a pro with a good amount of carbonation and just the right amount of foam. Not sure what typw of faucets you have, but I noticed that if you don't hold them wide open while pouring, that too would cause an excessive amount of foam. I still have those picnic style faucets and I coil the beverage lines and wrap them with zip ties so thay are nice and neat inside my refrigerator.

 

[badmajon]

Yeah I think I'll just buy a longer line. BTW, can I just use home depot 3/16th tubing(or whatever is on there now) and a hose clamp or what?

 

[shortyjacobs]

Yeah I think I'll just buy a longer line. BTW, can I just use home depot 3/16th tubing(or whatever is on there now) and a hose clamp or what?

You really want 3/16" thick walled beverage line.

Home depot tube is thin walled, so pressure will cause expansion/contraction in the tube, causing relative pressure spikes/drops, causing CO2 to come out of solution, causing tough to diagnose foaming issues. It's also not especially smooth inside, and little bumps inside will cause turbulence, again causing CO2 to crash out of solution.

Thick walled bev line solves both these issues.

That said, for temporary setups, I have used the cheapo home-depot stuff....(like for my mobile kegerator), and it's worked fine. I suppose if you want to try it out, you can buy that first for $0.10/ft, then if it gives you any improvement buy the real stuff for $0.70/ft, (my LHBS cost).

 

[badmajon]

I emailed the people at Keg Connection and this is what they said, now I am even more confused:

Ten feet of beer line is WAY too long for a system using 12 to 14PSI (beer carbonation level and serving level) and serving at the proper temperature of 38degrees. I don't know why there is this rumor on the internet, but I have seen it myself. Our decision to use 5' of line is based on restriction tables set up by the beer industry and used for years all over the world. It has nothing to do with the price of beer line. You can take any formula ever devised for proper restriction on beer line and you will find that beer being pushed through a straight line (not significant up or down) will provide between 2.7 to 3 restriction per foot. This means that you would need about 4 to 5 feet of beer line to properly restrict beer flowing at 12 to 14 PSI. 10 feet is way too much and would slow down your pour. If you are pushing your beer at 12 PSI I can absolutely assure you that your issue with foam is not due to the length of your line. You need to look closely at your beer temperature or your actual carbonation level in your beer. However, we are all about customer service and if you want more line I will be happy to send you more at no cost. I just don't want to perpetuate the rumor that you need 10' of beer line on a system. If I went to a bar and put 10" of beer line on a direct draw system they would kick me out of the place and tell me to never come back! There is a tried and true formula for setting restriction on beer lines and I would challenge anyone on a forum site to convince the beer industry that all of these formulas are incorrect.

I should mention one more thing. The easiest thing for us to do as a company would be to just put 10' of beer line on our systems and be done with this. But please understand that this would give people issues as well. We would have complaints from our customers that their beer was pouring way to slow. Our commercial customers would be especially vocal about this.
Thanks,
Todd

So if Todd is right, how come I get a good glass of beer at 4 psi, and foamy nothing at 12 psi??

 

[MW66]

That may be true, but have you noticed how many pubs pour off the foam of a glass before they actually hand it to you? I would not like to do that with a home system. I put two of those McMaster Carr nozzles in the kegs and now they pour perfectly and I have 6' of line. I may change them out and add 1/4" ice maker line instead to dispell any type of food safe material concerns. At 6' of line and cold beer temperature, I would still get some foaming issues without any other restriction.

 

[shortyjacobs]

Todd has been saying the same thing in multiple threads yesterday and today. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I say 10 feet is correct. I keep seeing people touting this damn "formula" like it's God's gift to beer drinkers. It's an empirically derived formula...woo hoo. I can make a formula too, but that doesn't mean it will model what I see in the real world. To me, 10' of line works, 5' of line pours foam, (and my lines are cold, and my beer is 38F, and my pressure is 11 PSI, and all that crap).

Look, the reason you can pour at 4 PSI is because you're pushing it slower and because you don't have to dissipate as much pressure in the line. So, either pour at 4 PSI, or buy 10' of line. Either way you will pour slower, but one way will mean you maintain the correct carbonation level, (the 10' line option).

 

[cat007]

Polyethylene or Polyurethane for beer line?

 

[blackbear219]

My system came with 5' lines. I was getting foamy pours at desired co2 volumes (42F @ 12psi). I made my lines longer, and my problems stopped. I'm not saying Todd is wrong in general, but I've done a lot of trial and error and my keezer needs lines longer than 5' if I am going to serve at 12psi, that's for sure. YMMV.

 

[badmajon]

I upgraded to 10' lines and now I have no problems when serving... sorry KegConnection!

It also helps to make sure you are not holding the beer line in your hand if you are using party taps. Warming the line can make foam. Just hold the tap itself.

Cat: not sure, just go to www.kegconnection.com and see what they use... (I know you're in NZ and probably wouldn't use that site but they will tell you what the lines are made of)

 

[xoltri]

I emailed the people at Keg Connection and this is what they said, now I am even more confused:



So if Todd is right, how come I get a good glass of beer at 4 psi, and foamy nothing at 12 psi??

I have a keg connection setup also. I have 5ft lines, I set my reg to 12 PSI @38 degrees and let the beer carb over 3 weeks. It pours absolutely perfect every single time. Perfect head, perfect carbonation.

I have a two tap tower in a mini fridge so there is barely any lift on the taps.

I'm sure adding extra beer line can treat the symptom of foamy beer a lot of times, but it is not curing the problem. As others have said your beer is probably over carbed to begin with.

 

[CorneliusAlphonse]

most bars also have their taps 3 or 4 feet above the tops of their kegs, while keezers have them almost at-height. The extra height will dissipate some pressure as well (used to metric units, so not sure how many psi..), making the pours less foamy.

 

[day_trippr]

most bars also have their taps 3 or 4 feet above the tops of their kegs, while keezers have them almost at-height. The extra height will dissipate some pressure as well (used to metric units, so not sure how many psi..), making the pours less foamy.

But height is usually a minor factor compared to line length. The generally accepted resistance of typical 3/16" ID beer line is around 2.7 psi/foot, while one foot of elevation contributes a mere .5 psi...

Cheers!

 

[Bigscience]

For all the 10th believers out there, another thing to consider is if your regulator gauge is actually calibrated. I was having the same issue, dropping the pressure to pour and I finally got a new manifold and the problem went away. I took my old gauge to work and checked the cal and it was reading 7 psi low. I was trying 12 but was pushing 19. I'm not saying that's everyone's issue but if your needle is pegged at zero and there's still some pressure...

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[badmajon]

For all the 10th believers out there, another thing to consider is if your regulator gauge is actually calibrated. I was having the same issue, dropping the pressure to pour and I finally got a new manifold and the problem went away. I took my old gauge to work and checked the cal and it was reading 7 psi low. I was trying 12 but was pushing 19. I'm not saying that's everyone's issue but if your needle is pegged at zero and there's still some pressure...

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Huh. Interesting. Right now I am having foam issues at what seems to be 12 psi. 4.5 degrees C so there should be no problem. I will switch one of the kegs on the manifold to the spare carbing regulator and also set to 12 psi and see what happens.

 

[Bigscience]

But, if your gauge was reading low and you were running more CO2, you'd overcarb until it equilibrated at the lower pressure. The "damage" would be done already. I also tend to have more issues when I try to speed carb my beers if I go over the recommended temp/pressure even for a little bit. I've found the best way is to do the keg shake but only at the proper psi. It will still take a few days to a week after that with no shaking but I'll get no foam at normal serving pressures.

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