Is it possible to have a tasty true Brut

[buzzliteyear]

Im Type 2 and just purchased a 65L Brewzilla, on my second brew using Mangroove Jack Dry Enzyme (glucoamylase)

17L brew
3kg Vienna
1kg lager
10grs Pacifica 60min 5%AA
50grs pacifica 10min
Voss yeast
300grs dextrose
Dry Enzyme
1.047
.998

it has No malt taste and bitter like a pilsner maybe more

I know I need to get my balance correct so scaled up the brew 3 times to 51L using same amount of hops
and it was still bitter.......I dont know how to get a malt taste with such a low finish gravity
Cheers Brett

 

[pvtpublic]

What is your mash schedule?

 

[buzzliteyear]

76 degrees for 60 minutes ( 168 F )

 

[pvtpublic]

That's waaaay too high. You should be at 65*C for a high fermentable wort. The glucoamylase that you're adding is what is ruining your malt character. That enzyme is tearing through everything. Your barley malt has all the enzymes you need to convert your starches into fermentable sugar. The stars of that show are alpha and beta amylase. Beta will give you more fermentables and it's prime temp range is between 55 and 65C. Alpha gives bigger chunks of sugars that range in fermentability and add mouthfeel. It's prime temp range is 63 to 70C. You'll want to balance your temp somewhere between these two to get the right consistency in your beer, depending on the style you're brewing. In this case, I suggest 65-67C. With a mash temp of 76C, you've already denatured most of these alpha and beta amylase enzymes, and possibly extracted the tannins out of the husks which adds to the perceived bitterness. Don't let your mash go over 76C, and don't mash too thin either, both are the factors that pull tannins from those husks.

 

[buzzliteyear]

Many thanks. So aim for 65. Are you surgesting not to use my enzymes ? I know they are striping the malt taste away but would I get I low finish gravity and very low sugars if I don't use them

 

[WestMichiganSteelheader]

Im Type 2 and just purchased a 65L Brewzilla, on my second brew using Mangroove Jack Dry Enzyme (glucoamylase)

17L brew
3kg Vienna
1kg lager
10grs Pacifica 60min 5%AA
50grs pacifica 10min
Voss yeast
300grs dextrose
Dry Enzyme
1.047
.998

it has No malt taste and bitter like a pilsner maybe more

I know I need to get my balance correct so scaled up the brew 3 times to 51L using same amount of hops
and it was still bitter.......I dont know how to get a malt taste with such a low finish gravity
Cheers Brett

Here is a link to the brut I make. My brew partner and I just did an 11 gallon batch. We bottled 5.5 with a raspberry extract. Very tasty and clean.

I agree that bruts lack malt taste as they finish clean and low on carbs.

 

[bracconiere]

try a stout....or an amber, much better then a light beer when dry...

i believe because the darker crystals have enough unfermentable sugars, both by yeast and gluco...

 

[buzzliteyear]

Here is a link to the brut I make. My brew partner and I just did an 11 gallon batch. We bottled 5.5 with a raspberry extract. Very tasty and clean.

I agree that bruts lack malt taste as they finish clean and low on carbs.

Thank you I will check out after work later

 

[buzzliteyear]

try a stout....or an amber, much better then a light beer when dry...

i believe because the darker crystals have enough unfermentable sugars, both by yeast and gluco...

Yes I understand but that will mean im consuming my sugars . I don't mind the dryness at all just trying to get some malt taste and very low sugar. Looks like I may have been mashing to high for a start

 

[bracconiere]

Yes I understand but that will mean im consuming my sugars . I don't mind the dryness at all just trying to get some malt taste and very low sugar. Looks like I may have been mashing to high for a start

you do know 1.000 FG still has carbs right? an actual zero brew would be like .987 or something? and the darker grains won't effect the FG, it'll still finish at ~1

 

[buzzliteyear]

you do know 1.000 FG still has carbs right? an actual zero brew would be like .987 or something? and the darker grains won't effect the FG, it'll still finish at ~1

No I thought it would finish higher like 1.010 ? My last two brews finished at .998 will dark malts retain flavour when the sugars are taken out or just darken the brew

 

[bracconiere]

http://www.mrgoodbeer.com/carb-cal.shtml

it's still some carbs?

 

[bracconiere]

i wouldn't take that calc as gospel, but a good guess...

 

[DuncB]

Alcohol per gramme is nearly the same calories as fat!

 

[bracconiere]

Alcohol per gramme is nearly the same calories as fat!

yeah but they actually lower your blood glucose levels...

 

[pvtpublic]

For a brut, I would honestly follow an American light lager recipe, but with a clean ale yeast and hopped like an ipa.

 

[doug293cz]

With a mash temp of 76C, you've already denatured most of these alpha and beta amylase enzymes, and possibly extracted the tannins out of the husks which adds to the perceived bitterness. Don't let your mash go over 76C, and don't mash too thin either, both are the factors that pull tannins from those husks.

Tannins are a definite possibility at your mash temp, especially if your mash pH got up around 6, or higher. It's high temp and high pH together that drive tannin extraction. However, thin mashes are NOT a cause of tannin extraction. Many brewers do full volume, no sparge mashes (basically the thinnest mashes possible) without any tannin issues whatsoever. Alkalinity in your brewing water, or even just all light colored grains with no alkalinity in the water, can lead to high mash pH.

You should lower your mash temps (as previously recommended), and look into water adjustments to control mash pH. The "Brew Science" forum on HBT has lots of information on controlling mash pH. What is the source of the water you brew with, and do you have any information on the ionic content of your water?

It's highly unlikely that the bitterness is due to your hops. You don't have enough alpha acids, boiled long enough for that.

You also might be getting off flavors from the yeast you are using. I would consider trying something other than a kveik yeast to see if that makes any difference. I have read some comments about off flavors from kveik.

I don't have any suggestions for obtaining maltiness when using glucoamylase, as that will render any starch based carbohydrate fermentable.

Brew on

 

[buzzliteyear]

Tannins are a definite possibility at your mash temp, especially if your mash pH got up around 6, or higher. It's high temp and high pH together that drive tannin extraction. However, thin mashes are NOT a cause of tannin extraction. Many brewers do full volume, no sparge mashes (basically the thinnest mashes possible) without any tannin issues whatsoever. Alkalinity in your brewing water, or even just all light colored grains with no alkalinity in the water, can lead to high mash pH.

You should lower your mash temps (as previously recommended), and look into water adjustments to control mash pH. The "Brew Science" forum on HBT has lots of information on controlling mash pH. What is the source of the water you brew with, and do you have any information on the ionic content of your water?

It's highly unlikely that the bitterness is due to your hops. You don't have enough alpha acids, boiled long enough for that.

You also might be getting off flavors from the yeast you are using. I would consider trying something other than a kveik yeast to see if that makes any difference. I have read some comments about off flavors from kveik.

I don't have any suggestions for obtaining maltiness when using glucoamylase, as that will render any starch based carbohydrate fermentable.

Brew on

Doug you touched one another good point....I use rain water it had just poured down and had fresh tank water,
my ph meter is rubbish and started at 7 and went to 5.5-6 and all over the place(that is just the water not the mash)
But if my mash ph was high and i also sparged with 76 degree (168F) water that would release tannins also i guess ? (for my bitter taste)
PH meter cost a arm and a leg here in NZ....what about test strips ?
Also my brewing cabin get very hot up to 36 degrees (96F) two weeks ago so im fermented with Voss at 27C (80F) in a fridge thats no turned on to
keep a constant temp.......

 

[buzzliteyear]

double post sorry

 

[Protos]

To minimise Carbonhydrate content in your beer, you need to mash very low, like 62-63C. Up to 65C the beta-amylase enzyme produces Maltose which all yeasts are able to metabolize into Ethanol. Higher than that, Alpha-amylase comes into play, which produces Maltotriose and Dextrins. Not every yeast is capable of transforming them into Alcohol, and when ingested those high-molecular sugars metabolise into Glucose in your system, which is not what you want.
Try brewing Saisons or Belgian Strongs. Those styles are very dry by definition but very flavourful and not especially bitter. Although dry, they don't taste thin or watery, they still have much more body than Brut - not because of the sugars, but because of the Diabetes-neutral Glycerol produced by the particular family of yeasts used for these styles.

Added: Again, Saison and Belgian Strong strains are warm-loving, perfect for the hot ambient temperature you have in your brewing cabin. I use them in summer at 26-30c. I'd say they produce beers much more noble and refined than anything you might produce with Kveik yeasts.

 

[Steverus07]

In my brut, my only “bittering” is 28g Nelson Sauvin (10.7% AA) at between 15 and 3 min. I add most of my hops in a hopstand under 168F (75C) and then dry hops. My wife doesn’t like a very bitter IPA and I get mostly the citrusy, fruity notes from my hops (Nelson, hellartau blanc, azacca, Idaho 7, enigma… I’ve played with lots of these in bruts).

Definitely lower your mash temp, but also consider that you may even lower the already most amount of hops you’ve got in there to hit the style standard of 15-25 IBUs… if you care about that sort of thing.

 

[doug293cz]

Doug you touched one another good point....I use rain water it had just poured down and had fresh tank water,
my ph meter is rubbish and started at 7 and went to 5.5-6 and all over the place(that is just the water not the mash)
But if my mash ph was high and i also sparged with 76 degree (168F) water that would release tannins also i guess ? (for my bitter taste)
PH meter cost a arm and a leg here in NZ....what about test strips ?

I know it is a confusing concept to folks not yet familiar with brewing water chemistry, but starting water pH is immaterial, while mash pH is critical. It's the water's alkalinity, along with the grain bill, and water additives that determine the mash pH, not the water's pH. Alkalinity is related to the starting water's buffering power, which is a measure of how easy it is to shift the pH from it's starting value. It takes very little to change the pH of low alkalinity water, but significantly more to change the pH of high alkalinity water. You could have two sources of water, both at pH 7.5, but one low alkalinity, and the other at high alkalinity. For a given grain bill and set of water additives, the low alkalinity water might result in a mash pH of 5.8 (barely acceptable), whereas the high alkalinity water might result in a mash pH of 6.5 (unacceptable) (just made up numbers to illustrate the concept.) The Bru'nWater website has a good tutorial on water chemistry.

Grain bills that contain only low color malts, tend to create higher pH mashes, all else being equal. Rain water is likely to be very low alkalinity, and low in ionic content in general (close to reverse osmosis [RO] or distilled water.) This combination is very likely to result in an excessively high mash pH, unless the water is treated with acid, and preferably other ionic additives as well.

So, your high mash and sparging temp, in combination with a likely high mash pH, could very well be giving you astringency.

pH test strips have been found to be pretty much useless for mash pH testing. You are better off using a water calculator like Bru'nWater or BrewersFriend to determine your mash water additions, and not bothering to test the pH at all, if you can't get a good meter.

Brew on

 

[buzzliteyear]

Thanks Protos i will look into those Beers Also.....
Thanks Steverus07 yes lastest brew that was on my Birthday 9th Dec I reduced my bittering hops down even more......I expected
not to taste any bitter taste but did so a little.....
I will need to look into my water Chemistry like Doug has mention
Thanks Doug ......is there a PH meter that works and doesnt cost the earth ?

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, for handheld units the Apera pH60 has taken the popularity lead of late (full disclosure: I've owned one for years now).
For tethered units the Milwaukee MW-102 has always been the most popular.

Cheers!