Is a Keg more sanitary than bottle condition

[ColoradoHomebrew]

I now keg most of my beers, but still want to bottle condition strong Belgians and such so I don't occupy a tap for so long. I've noticed that all of my bottle conditions eventually go bad with infection. Even my 9% plus Wee Heavy is now starting to taste worse at 9 months. They all eventually get a gusher infection where some bacteria seems to eat the sugars the yeast could not at some point around 8-10 months and turn them into gushers. My kegs do not last that long, but my theory is that bottling is more risky to excessive bacteria colonies compared to kegging. I tasted a fantastic 2003 barley wine at my brew club meeting and would love to age that long.

In full disclosure, I did go through a rash of gusher infections (within 4 weeks of aging) in the spring and isolated the spigot as the problem on the bottling bucket. My spigot now goes through the sani cycle wash before every bottle and the problem has been eliminated, though yet to be determined if this will eliminate long term storage. I've also added quite a few extra steps to sanitation. Everything gets PBW, then bleach, then rinse, then star san and bottles and spigots get a dish washer heating too.

So is kegging better and should I invest in a beer gun to bottle age? or am I just not sanitary enough, or at least not so in the past before my spring infections.

 

[scottland]

Your kegged beers stay at keg temperatures. Nothing likes to grow at 32-42*, and even if it does, it grows slowly.

I bet if you took a keg full of beer, and let it sit for 9 months at room temp, you'd have the same issue.

 

[ColoradoHomebrew]

Your kegged beers stay at keg temperatures. Nothing likes to grow at 32-42*, and even if it does, it grows slowly.

I bet if you took a keg full of beer, and let it sit for 9 months at room temp, you'd have the same issue.

Fair point, but there is a way to keep beers for more than 9 months without pasturizing. Especially 9+% ABV beers.

 

[tre9er]

Bottling is fine for those time frames. It's sealed, so no oxygen can get in, and there is still yeast active in there for the early portion.

Kegging can reliably keep beer for long periods too. Many brewers have beers that are a year old on tap. The benefit to kegging is one transfer, quickly, and one thing to sanitize.

 

[ColoradoHomebrew]

Bottling is fine for those time frames. It's sealed, so no oxygen can get in, and there is still yeast active in there for the early portion.

Kegging can reliably keep beer for long periods too. Many brewers have beers that are a year old on tap. The benefit to kegging is one transfer, quickly, and one thing to sanitize.

That is what I was thinking why it carries less risk. The other theory I have is that when I am bottling quite a bit of yeast has become dead, so when I add sugar, any bacteria could have grown a little durring fermentation and now I've added sugar giving them a chance.

 

[Revvy]

I've kept beers for years in bottles that didn't get infected. It's not about which is more sanitary than the other, they're both the same...It's that you're doing something wrong...and more than likely the cold is delaying or prevent it from happening in the keg.

But look at your post boil sanitization processes, NOT as to whether one is more sanitary than the other.

 

[kh54s10]

IMO your problem lies elsewhere than with the difference between bottles or keg.

Your beers should not infect by just being in bottles. I have read a lot of threads about people finding beers after years in a closet that were still good.

I have some bigger beers that gush. I think that the problem lies in the water/ingredient chemistry rather than infection since the beer is good and the degree of gushing is not changing.

For me it is time to get a water analysis and learn about water chemistry in brewing.

 

[tre9er]

That is what I was thinking why it carries less risk. The other theory I have is that when I am bottling quite a bit of yeast has become dead, so when I add sugar, any bacteria could have grown a little durring fermentation and now I've added sugar giving them a chance.

But you're starving everything of O2 and there aint much that grows without the stuff.

 

[scottland]

Fair point, but there is a way to keep beers for more than 9 months without pasturizing. Especially 9+% ABV beers.

I never said bottles can't be kept longer, I'm just giving you a plausible reason why your bottles aren't keeping longer.

Check and double check your sanitary practices. Something is getting in your beer from somewhere.

 

[Revvy]

I've never had to pasteruize beers. I've had regular beers that have been perfectly fine even 5 years later.

Charlie Papazain did a taste test in Zymurgy of beers he stored of winners of ALL the GABFs going back 25 years, and there was no mention of infected batches.

Guys, again, the only reasons beers get infected is NOT because they're stored wrong, it's because you failed somehow in sanitization...... You don't really need to do ANYTHING to age beers in terms of sanitization then you should be doing for ANY BEER.

 

[amandabab]

Everything gets PBW, then bleach, then rinse, then star san and bottles and spigots get a dish washer heating too.

is that heating after starsan?

I'd take the dishwasher out of the sanitizing process all together.
unless its a commercial unit with heaters and a pumped bleach/quat tank that it flushes from.

 

[tre9er]

:d

 

[Ramitt]

I starsan the crap out of everything before transfering and bottling.

 

[tre9er]

I starsan the crap out of everything before transfering and bottling.

I usually put six or ten bottles in a half-full bucket of starsan water and then take each one, dump, and fill with beer. That way I know they were sanitary right up until I filled them.

 

[ColoradoHomebrew]

is that heating after starsan?

I'd take the dishwasher out of the sanitizing process all together.
unless its a commercial unit with heaters and a pumped bleach/quat tank that it flushes from.

I think the dishwasher may be better than star san. I've got an experiment running right now with a bottle from the dishwasher that was filled with sugar water. After 4 weeks, nothing is growing. In a few weeks, I will put a sample from the bottle under a microcope.

 

[ColoradoHomebrew]

I usually put six or ten bottles in a half-full bucket of starsan water and then take each one, dump, and fill with beer. That way I know they were sanitary right up until I filled them.

This is what I used to do but like I said in the opening, I've traced previous infections to the spigot, which is difficult to sanitize so I deceided to try to sanitize the spigot in the dishwasher. I figured why not throw the bottles in too. This process is new and I am not against star san and am sure I will use it in the future for bottles. I even have for bottling from a keg since hot bottles are not desirable.

My other thought was to replace the plastic spigot with a brass one from home depot and boil before use, like a plate chiller. The other thing I started doing is putting a lid on the bottling bucket.

No matter what you do, there will be some bacteria colonies, and my whole point was to ask is there most likely less in a kegging operation mostly because of the speed of the operation and less parts.

 

[ColoradoHomebrew]

Just doing a little research and there are plenty of infections that can grow without O2 (anaerobic bacteria). Lactobacillus and Pediococcus are examples

 

[RmikeVT]

My biggest problem when aging beers is not drinking it.

 

[DonMagee]

I've never had a bottle infection. I sanitize my bottling bucket by filling it full of starsan, then running the starsan though the valve into the sink. Then I put all my bottles in the sink, rack my beer into the bottling bucket, and move the bottles to a bottling tree before filling.

 

[mpcluever]

I think the dishwasher may be better than star san.

I'd love to see some evidence that this is true... Personally, I have a hard time believing that mild heat for a short time (which may or may not effectively heat the INSIDE of the bottle) will be as effective as an acid solution in direct contact will all the nasties in there.

IMO the dishwasher is fine for short term storage as it probably does kill most everything. However, my processes such that I try to use the same procedure for everything. That means maximum cleaning and sanitizing. STAR SAN all the way!!

 

[ColoradoHomebrew]

I've never had a bottle infection. I sanitize my bottling bucket by filling it full of starsan, then running the starsan though the valve into the sink. Then I put all my bottles in the sink, rack my beer into the bottling bucket, and move the bottles to a bottling tree before filling.

Don,

Thant was fine for the 1st year with me, then the valve was getting infected. It needs to be taken apart and deep cleaned.

 

[ColoradoHomebrew]

I'd love to see some evidence that this is true... Personally, I have a hard time believing that mild heat for a short time (which may or may not effectively heat the INSIDE of the bottle) will be as effective as an acid solution in direct contact will all the nasties in there.

IMO the dishwasher is fine for short term storage as it probably does kill most everything. However, my processes such that I try to use the same procedure for everything. That means maximum cleaning and sanitizing. STAR SAN all the way!!

According to Palmer, it works fine http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter2-2-3.html

I ran mine on heated dry sanitize cycle and reached 160F for 2 hours. Also, not I ran a test with the bottle and nothing is growing. Been doing a little research and this test is similar to tests done in test tubes for QC at a brewer and you should visually see growth in 3 days. Also note my bottles were bleach soaked before the dishwasher and rinsed. I star san everything else. The simplest point is Star san may not be good enough for a valve in some conditions.

 

[DonMagee]

Don,

Thant was fine for the 1st year with me, then the valve was getting infected. It needs to be taken apart and deep cleaned.

Honestly, for the $15.00 I'll just buy a new bucket once it gets infected (or if). I recently started kegging though so I don't see myself using the bottling bucket anytime soon.