Irish Moss / Whirlfloc @ Bottling?

[BrewmanBeing]

Can I add a clarifier such as Irish Moss or Whirlfloc at bottling? I seem to remember yes.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Irish Moss is used in the boil.

Whirllock/flock I've seen used in the boil (but I've never used them)

Polyclar is used in the secondary.

Finings are used prior to bottling (tried them once and DO NOT recommend them).

 

[david_42]

H99 is correct, IM & Whirlfloc only work in boiling water.

Finings (including polyclar (plastic), gelatin (horse hooves), isinglass (fish guts), etc.) are added 3-4 days before bottling to clarify.

 

[AdIn]

Finings are used prior to bottling (tried them once and DO NOT recommend them).

Why not? Is there some kind of taste impact or stability. I just used isinglass for the first time, seem like it did the job, secondary cleaned pretty nicely.

 

[BrewmanBeing]

Well, when I prepare my primer, I boil a little bit of DME in water, why can't I add whirlfloc to this?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Well, when I prepare my primer, I boil a little bit of DME in water, why can't I add whirlfloc to this?

Whirlfloc and Irish Moss are intended to coagulate proteins in hot wort - i.e., help settle the hot break to the bottom of your kettle. Once the wort is cooled, the intended effect is lost. If you add either product to your hot priming solution, proteins in the priming solution will coagulate, but there will be no effect on the already cool beer when you prime.

 

[Mike-H]

Ok, now i'm confused! I have used wirlfloc in the boil now for the past 2 batches and in the past 2 batches I have had extreme separation while both cooling the word and in the fermenter... When I saw all the stuff going to the bottom of the boiling pot I kept stirring it up because I assumed it was fermentable stuff.... Do I NOT want this stuff in my fermenter? I feel if I didnt rack it I would be losing a lot of the wort... Also, a good chunk of the stuff that seperates in the fermentor seems to get stirred up and eaten by the yeast.... So that strengthened my theory (actually in the case of my oat beer the yeast ate ALL of it)....

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Perhaps I was a little unclear - Whirlfloc and Irish Moss need to be added to hot wort in order for them to coagulate proteins in the "break." They will help precipitate both hot and cold break material out of solution as the wort cools. These proteins are what contribute to "chill haze," so you want to keep the bulk of them out of the fermenter. The material is not fermentable, but there is some evidence that cold break material in small amounts can contribute some yeast nutrients.

EDIT: If you read another of my recent posts, you'll note that I don't worry about getting cold break material into my fermenter. I haven't experienced any ill effects from this, presumably because my use of Irish Moss coupled with crash cooling the wort cause the proteins to fall out in big chunks which eventually end up as a trub layer under the yeast "pankcake."

 

[BrewmanBeing]

So is there anything that isn't either from an animal or synthetic that I can add to my beer prior to bottling to assist in clarification in the bottle?

I seem to remember having success with Irish Moss in this regard but don't want to risk it since I am not sure. Perhaps some experimentation is in order.

 

[the_bird]

There are things to add, which have been mentioned (re-read David_42's post). But, those get added to the secondary fermenter to give stuff a chance to fall out. You'll rack off of those things, leaving them being, when you move the beer to your bottling bucket.

Even if you could add a clarifying agent at the bottling process, it's not like the proteins and whathaveyou simply disappear - they coagulate and fall out of suspension. If you added something like isinglass at the bottling stage, when everything falls out of suspension it's going to remain right in the bottle.

EDIT: mis-read the "not animal or synthetic" part.

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

So is there anything that isn't either from an animal or synthetic

Why does this matter? Most finings are thus and work really well. I think bentonite is the only exception. There is some useful bentonite info around here.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

So is there anything that isn't either from an animal or synthetic that I can add to my beer prior to bottling to assist in clarification in the bottle?

I seem to remember having success with Irish Moss in this regard but don't want to risk it since I am not sure. Perhaps some experimentation is in order.

As already stated, Irish Moss and Whirlfloc are not suitable as "fining agents" at bottling time.

What you're looking for are finings such as Polyclar, Isinglass, or gelatin, all of which are intended for use a few days before bottling. Add the finings to the fermenter according to the directions on the bottle/packet, wait a few days, then bottle as normal.

EDIT: I also missed the "not made from animal or synthetic" part. No, I don't know of a wholistic vegan fining material. Eat meat, embrace plastic.

 

[Mike-H]

You can use blood as a fining..... So if you are crazy just cut yourself and put it in your beer.

 

[the_bird]

NOTE TO SELF: no beer-swaps with jackle...

 

[BrewmanBeing]

Right, I am looking for something that would cause the proteins to coagulate and fall out, sticking to the bottom of the bottle.

In decanting a bottle of homebrew, one is supposed to leave a tiny bit at the bottom to avoid sediment. From brewing years ago I remember eventually finding a solution which allowed me to pour out the entire beer with the sediment sticking to the bottom of the bottle, but still being able to be washed out easily with some agitation. I think it was Irish moss because at the time I was vegan and refused to use any animal or synthetic products in my beer.

 

[BrewmanBeing]

OK well I am going to do some experimentation, and let you guys know what I find out. Can someone help me to develop an experimental procedeure which will prove (or disprove) the effectiveness of irish moss/whirlfloc at bottling time? My first thought would be to bottle half of a batch in which whirlfloc was bioled with the priming solution, and the other half without whirlfloc, and then compare the resulting beers after a couple of weeks.

 

[Evan!]

I'd be careful of using Irish Moss. Never used whirfloc tabs, but I do know that Irish Moss has a distinct, pungent dead-fish smell/taste. That taste gets boiled out when you add to the boil, but adding to cooled/fermented beer seems risky, as it may inject off flavors and/or aromas to your finished prod. I'd suggest not using it on this go-round, and just accepting the fact that this particular batch is going to be a little bit cloudy. Not worth risking an undrinkable batch---I'd take cloudy-but-delicious beer over clear-but-tastes-like-fish beer any day of the week. But it's your decision...just don't expect much.

Plus, I think the effectiveness of irish moss and whirfloc depend on them being added to hot/boiling liquid. If you're going to add anything at all this late in the game, use finings, not clarifying agents like moss.

What's your obsession with using moss/whirfloc? Why are you trying to prove or disprove this theory of yours? Don't you think that, in all the years and the millions of people who have brewed throughout the history of beer, someone would have already tried this method? And if it worked, it would probably be an accepted method by this point. Brewing is not a new thing---and if I were you, I wouldn't waste a batch, or even half a batch, embarking on some fools' mission.

Furthermore, adding anything to the priming solution probably won't matter, because it depends partially on the proteins, etc., being in the same solution that is being boiled at the time when the tabs are added. So unless you're going to boil your already-fermented beer, which is suicide, then I can't see how this experiment could possibly work.

Finings have already been proven beyond a doubt to work in most situations if you follow the directions. So why all the worry? Again, you can do whatever you want, cuz it's your beer, but don't say I didn't tell you so...:fro:

 

[BrewmanBeing]

I am obsessed with this idea because I want my beer to be vegan/all-natural. I am not even vegan, but I respect the idea that beer should be. I also have lots of vegan friends.

Perhaps someone already has tried this and ended up with terrible results. Or, perhaps there is an entrenched ideology and resistance to change that should be overcome. I intend to find out. :rockin:

 

[the_bird]

The whole idea of a synthetic fining is that it will attract proteins and drop out of suspension. By the time you drink the beer - they're gone.

 

[Evan!]

Okeedokee---more power to ya. I got no problem with bucking the traditional line of thourhgt. But again, if I were you, I'd let this batch slide (clarity is one of the last things I'm worried about unless I decide it's time to enter into competitions), and just try adding irish moss or whirfloc to the boil next time you brew, 15 mins before the end.

I've never used finings or any other non-vegan product myself, even though I couldn't care less about keeping my beer vegan.

Also, what style of beer are we talking about here?

 

[Evan!]

The whole idea of a synthetic fining is that it will attract proteins and drop out of suspension. By the time you drink the beer - they're gone.

Scientifically, yes...but you can never remove the tiny little bits of the horse's soul, can you!?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Since when can vegans not eat something out of a plastic container? Seems to me that polyclar would be a fine solution for you.

Once again, Irish Moss and Whirlflock AREN'T GOING TO HELP WITH COOL, FERMENTED BEER - the physics of it just don't make sense...see below (or this article ... this article is good, too).

However, in trying to help you in your quest, I did a little [ame="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=bentonite"]Googling on bentonite[/ame]. Seems it's nothing more than a specific kind of mud. Doesn't get much more natural than that. Give it a shot.

Protein Coagulation
During the wort boil, certain types of proteins can be coagulated. These proteins are primarily responsible for haze formation in the finished beer. However, the boiling temperature alone will not coagulate the proteins. Coagulation and precipitation require the action of the bubbles formed during a vigorous boil. Because these proteins are electrically charged molecules, providing a substance of the opposite charge will enhance the coagulation. Irish Moss, carragheen, is a seaweed that when added when added at the rate of 1 teaspoon to a 5 gallon batch the last 15-20 minutes of a rolling boil helps attract coagulated proteins into clumps causing their precipitation during the cool down period. The importance of a vigorous, rolling boil for protein coagulation cannot be emphasized enough.

 

[feedthebear]

Bentonite is a naturally occurring type of clay. Okay, I’ll stop being an engineer.

From what I’ve read, though, it too is meant to be used at the beginning of fermentation too. It mixes as a slurry that has to be uniform and has to sit 24 hours before adding. I think the difficult trick to using it in bottling would be to get it uniformly dispersed in the beer. It might be better to add it to the secondary, mix gently, and let it sit a couple weeks longer.

Also, if you let the clay sit in the bottom of your bottles too long (say 3 – 6 months), it may start cementing itself there.

Personally, if you are really paranoid about haze - serve it in steins and mugs. Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I think the difficult trick to using it in bottling would be to get it uniformly dispersed in the beer. It might be better to add it to the secondary, mix gently, and let it sit a couple weeks longer.

Finings usually work best when added to the fermenter (instead of the individual bottles) toward the end of fermentation. That keeps all of the precipitate in the bottom of the fermenter and out of the bottles.

 

[BrewmanBeing]

I'm actually less concerned about clarity. What I want is to be able to pour the beer out into a glass completely, and not get any sediment. I want something that makes the sediment stick to the bottom of the bottle, but that can be easily washed out.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I'm actually less concerned about clarity. What I want is to be able to pour the beer out into a glass completely, and not get any sediment. I want something that makes the sediment stick to the bottom of the bottle, but that can be easily washed out.

Ok, that's an interesting dilemma. I really don't have issues with bottle sediment - I just slow my pour as I get to the bottom of the bottle and stop as the sediment starts to creep toward the neck. I rarely leave more than a few drops of beer in the bottle with that method. I'm really not sure how to make the sediment more "sticky" - especially if you want ease of cleaning.

Might I suggest keg conditioning your beer, then bottling with a counterpressure filler or beer gun? That would certainly increase cost but virtually eliminate sediment in your bottles.

 

[Evan!]

Oh, THAT'S your issue? Then don't homebrew, my friend. Or, conversely, you can try kegging your beer and force-carbonating.

But as long as you're naturally carbonating using priming sugars, you will get "sediment" (read: YEAST) in the bottom of your bottle. Nothing, no moss or whirfloc or horse-hoof gelatin, is going to make the carbo yeast in your bottles suddenly disappear, or even "stick to the bottom".

My advice is this: forget about this mission impossible, and just give your beers plenty of bottle conditioning time. The longer they're in bottle, stored uright, the more the yeast settles on the bottom. Then, when you pour, just be extra careful. But, remember, all these additives, whether they be natural or from animals, they don't make yeast "stick to the bottom", they just make things fall out of suspension more readily, thus clarifying the beer. The lone exception MAY be bentonite, because it is a kind of clay, and as such, it may be able to form a rather solid cake at the bottom of the bottle...but this is all conjecture and guessing.

Yeast sediment in the bottom of the bottle is just a part of homebrewing, unless you want to keg your beer. My advice is, just accept it as a fact of life, and leave that last 1/4" of sludge in the bottle.

Either that, or become a pro brewer and filter/force-carb your bottles.

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

The easiest way to get rid of sediment is to filter and force carbonate as some have said. You can get just about everything out with a 1 micron filter, it should be pretty easy to build with all the water purification stuff on the market today. I have heard that filtering takes away some of the character of the beer though.

I think you're going to have to experiment with it and get back to us if you're bent on bottle-fining.

 

[feedthebear]

I would think that anything that makes the sediment stick to the bottom of the bottle won’t be easily washed out. So then its back to preventing sediment and that works best in the boil and the primary.

Maybe you could try something like the “carbonsnake filter system”. It hooks right on to a bottling bucket. I found this on http://www.beer-wine.com

CarbonSnake Filter System: The CarbonSnake is an inexpensive, easy to use carbon purification system which will remove unwanted odors and flavors from fermented alcohol bases (i.e. distiller’s yeast, nutrient blends, SuperYeasts and TurboYeasts) and ethanol distillates (grain or sugar alcohols). Essentially, the unit is composed of a spigot which will fit on any standard bottling bucket, and a hose which is attached to the spigot, filled with 60 grams of Granular Activated Carbon (GAC) and a small coffee filter strainer at the bottom, above the outlet valve. Product flows from the bucket through the filter hose. Each GAC should do at least a 5-6 gallon batch.

Only problem I see... activated carbon will remove some desired flavors from the beer too.

I have to say that with my one bottled brew, having let it sit in the bottle for 6 weeks now, the bulk of the sediment doesn’t move much when its poured and I only leave about 1/16-inch of beer in the bottle. And I didn’t even use a secondary on that batch.

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

Another thing to consider is the type of yeast you'll be using. My brother uses Cooper's dry yeast (fairly trasparent flavour IMHO) and stores his beer at about 50F after conditioning for about two weeks at room temp. His beers tend to be remarkably clear and the sediment in his bottles is quite solid.
Some yeasts floc better than others.

 

[BrewmanBeing]

I have a distant memory of solving this problem in the past, and I thought I did it with Irish Moss boiled along with my priming solution, causing the bottle conditioning sediment to stick to the bottom of the bottle and resulting in a sediment free complete pour from the bottle while still allowing a relatively easy cleaning with agitation. I will experiment and report back my findings. If I ruin my beer it's my own fault but if this works, I want credit dammit.:rockin:

 

[homebrewer_99]

Why not? Is there some kind of taste impact or stability. I just used isinglass for the first time, seem like it did the job, secondary cleaned pretty nicely.

No problem with taste or stability.

I found that it floats about an inch from the bottom of the bottle...that's wasteful...

 

[homebrewer_99]

...So is there anything that isn't either from an animal or synthetic that I can add to my beer prior to bottling to assist in clarification in the bottle?...I seem to remember having success with Irish Moss in this regard but don't want to risk it since I am not sure. Perhaps some experimentation is in order.

As long as it's not a Weizen, I use Irish Moss...it's algae. What's more natural than seaweed? Just use it in the boil.

 

[boo boo]

Yeah, you could filter your brew.

 

[Evan!]

Brewman:

Here's an idea that might save you alot of ruined beer---

Rack into your bottling bucket. Then, rack a small amount of that (4-8 bottles worth) into a sterilized container. Then, measure out your priming sugar, and separate it into two batches: one big batch that you'll use for the main portion of the beer, and one small batch that you'll use for the 4-8 experimental bottles.

When you boil your priming solution, do two boils, and add moss to the small batch, just a little bit. Then, mix the solutions in accordingly, and you have yourself a control batch and a test batch. If those few test bottles end up with good floc properties and no apparent taste or smell problems from the moss, then consider your experiment a success.

 

[david_42]

Bentonite (mud)

Bison Brewing claims to use a vegan fining (koppaklear) , but I cannot find any reference to the product except on their website. I was never impressed with their beers anyway.

Or get a filtering setup!

 

[BrewmanBeing]

Brewman:

Here's an idea that might save you alot of ruined beer---

Rack into your bottling bucket. Then, rack a small amount of that (4-8 bottles worth) into a sterilized container. Then, measure out your priming sugar, and separate it into two batches: one big batch that you'll use for the main portion of the beer, and one small batch that you'll use for the 4-8 experimental bottles.

When you boil your priming solution, do two boils, and add moss to the small batch, just a little bit. Then, mix the solutions in accordingly, and you have yourself a control batch and a test batch. If those few test bottles end up with good floc properties and no apparent taste or smell problems from the moss, then consider your experiment a success.

Thanks for the advice Evan! I won't have anything to bottle for another week or so, but in a month I will post back with the results. I plan to try bentonite on some bottles as well.