IPA. What is happening

[Andoshbrewing]

Hello brewers,
I’ve been home brewing for about 3 Years now. I do all grain, temp control fermentation, yeast starters, water chemistry, all the goodies.

Yet....

I can’t get my IPA’s to taste like anything but pine water.

NEIPA with oats and 30 ibus. Two weeks after kegging.... pine beer.

West coast with 90ibu, pine beer.

1:2 sulfate to chloride... pine beer.

2:1 sulfate to chloride.... pine beer.

Now this is a particular kind of pine beer. This is victory hop devil, pine tree sap, nothing but pine hop beer.

I can’t seem to solve the problem. I like bright tropical hops, a juicy malt bill, dry but with creamy body... I’ve tried so many recipes.
So many yeasts.

So many sanitizing products.

So many temps.

And so many different types of hops.

And when I take a sample from the (almost terminal gravity) fermentor, or while transfering, it’s phenominal..

Kegged and carbed..

Undifferentiated pine sap ale.


Why!?

 

[ProblemChild]

recipe? Process?

Folks around here love to help, but information is needed

Walk us through the ENTIRE process.

 

[eadavis80]

Seems like there's gotta' be something in the keg or its lines or something in the process when you transfer to the keg that's creating this flavor you don't like. When was the last time you really gave your keg system a really thorough cleaning? I only bottle so I don't know jack about kegging, but if the problem seems to occur AFTER everything BESIDES KEGGING then to me, logic dictates, the keg (or transfer to the keg) must the culprit. Good luck.

 

[RM-MN]

Do others perceive the same pine sap taste or is it just you?

 

[grampamark]

Not a lot to work with here.

What do your other beers taste like? Or, do you even brew anything but IPAs? Brew a Porter. If it tastes like pine sap, the problem might be with your taste buds, not your process.

Mark

 

[waldoar15]

I agree with letting some other people taste your beer. Some people will say it's good just because it's free though.

 

[LarMoeCur]

Two things come mind right away without know more about your processes.

1. What type of water are you using? Treated tap water or RO built up? If tap water, how do you treat it?
Sounds like Chlorophenols taking on a pinesol like taste.

2. Tell us about your racking and kegging process. Primary only or transfered to a secondary? Dry hopped or not?
Also sounds like oxidation. If your racking the beer to multiple vessels (fermenters and kegs) and dry hopping it could very well be that you are oxidizing the beer.

It could also be a combination of things compounding together to create this off flavor.

 

[Andoshbrewing]

Okay, this is going to take a while.

The recipe really doesn't seem to matter. As long as its hopped up heavily, it is soon a pine beer. The taste is noticeable to my brew buddy, and we both despise the pine flavor, and have tasted it in commercial beers. My problem seems to come with age, which makes me think oxidation. The beers taste like reputable IPA's out of the fermenter, but after a week, taste like I literally just boiled some pine sap into water.

My hunch is that it is oxidation.
And that hoppy beers are more susceptible to oxidation.
But that doesn't explain why we find it commercially and consistently in beers like say, Victory Hop Devil.

I have brewed many other styles with great success. My Belgian style beers especially come out like craft beer you pay good money for.

But of course I love IPA's, and they are my problem child.

The process:
5 gallon batches
All grain with cooler mash tun, 8 gallon SS kettle, SS immersion chiller, glass carboys, cleaned with PBW and sanitized with starsan. Change out my hoses regularly, use corny kegs that I clean, and usually do a closed transfer from secondary. Oxidation may be coming in during dry hopping or transfer from primary to secondary.
I usually use RO water for mash with salts and lactic acid as water calculator calls for.
I use tap for sparging.
Tap may have chlorine, I could try all RO water or capdem.

Ultimately, I am looking for ANY idea at this point, because I have messed with so many variables.
I appreciate the input though. The forum is awesome for info and my rants.

I think I will try water that for sure has no chlorine, and also work on my transfer techniques using my co2 tank to try to rig up a closed type transfer system and see if I can cut back on oxidation.

 

[ProblemChild]

Tap water pH may be high. High pH and over sparging may bring out tannins. Can also cause astringency. The two together (bitterness from tannins and astringency) will remain as flavor fades.

I would try r/o water chemically balanced in sparge, making sure the sparge water stays in proper temp range and keeping sparge time under 45 minutes.

 

[LarMoeCur]

When do you put in the dry hops?

To me it sounds like to many transfers combined with with dry hopping. I completely changed my dry hopping method about 8 years ago after all my hoppy beers started developing a sherry flavor in the kegs that I contributed to oxidation.

My old way method was to primary ferment until complete. Rack to secondary on top of dry hops. I thought in necessary to eliminate almost all the yeast. Hop oils will stick to the yeast. Works for a conical but not carboys. 7-10 days in secondary move to kegs and carbonate.

New method is to add half the dry hops to primary when fermentation is about 80-90% complete. The hops will contain some oxygen but the last bit of fermentation should help clean it up. Between 3-7 days I then rack to a CO2 purged keg with the other half of the dry hops. I do a closed CO2 transfer to keg. If you set up like a siphon transfer (carboy above keg) you only need a few pounds of head pressure in the carboy to get the beer moving through the tubing then gravity does the rest. The hardest part is watching the flow to know when to purge some the of CO2 out of the keg. Now you can leave the beer on the hops as long as you like. You can take samples to taste and know exactly when to transfer the beer to the serving keg. I will say this method uses a little more CO2 but not much. It does take a lot more effort but the beer has almost no exposure to O2.

 

[Indian_villager]

Here is where I think your problems are.

glass carboys, cleaned with PBW and sanitized with starsan. and usually do a closed transfer from secondary. Oxidation may be coming in during dry hopping or transfer from primary to secondary.

No need for secondary. I haven't done one in years and I do not miss it.
Second, how are you performing the "sealed" transfer from carboy to keg?

I used to have similar issues, here is how I got around it.

I swapped my fermenters for ported big mouth bubblers and a speidel. After dry hopping (loose not in a bag) I purge the head space with a good 15s blast of CO2.

I purge my kegs via displacement (fill with starsan push out with CO2) and then do a sealed transfer. Spigot --> Keg (liquid post). Keg (gas Post) --> fermenter. I purge out the lines going from the keg to the fermenter with the residual pressure in the keg after purging.

Now my IPAs stay stable and tasty for months.

If you don't want to swap out your fermenters I'm sure you can rig up something along the lines of the sterile siphon starter from brulosophy. I'd still recommend swapping out to ported fermonsters to make your life easier.

 

[Jlindy]

I purge my kegs via displacement (fill with starsan push out with CO2) and then do a sealed transfer. Spigot --> Keg (liquid post). Keg (gas Post) --> fermenter. I purge out the lines going from the keg to the fermenter with the residual pressure in the keg after purging.

You wouldn't happen to have a picture or video of this process would you? Thanks.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

It has been a while since I had Hop Devil but my Untappd notes read floral spice and not pine at all - and I dislike piney beers. If you are getting the same flavor notes in your beer and Hop Devil, then I would look closely at your hop bills.

Are you varying your bittering hops from batch to batch? For example, using CTZ in every batch as a base bittering hop? I would be tempted to try something like a Citra (and only citra) smash - if you get pine out of that, then there is something in your process that is causing the pine.

 

[cegan09]

When are you adding hops? All boil additions? flame out? whirlpool? When are you adding dry hops?

I agree the secondary can go. The NEIPAs I make sit in a fermenter for 14 days and then into the keg they go.

 

[Indian_villager]

I purge my kegs via displacement (fill with starsan push out with CO2) and then do a sealed transfer. Spigot --> Keg (liquid post). Keg (gas Post) --> fermenter. I purge out the lines going from the keg to the fermenter with the residual pressure in the keg after purging.

You wouldn't happen to have a picture or video of this process would you? Thanks.

At work so I can't post the picture directly.

Here is the amazon page for that bouncer filter. Mine is the only customer image.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01JWO5RK2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Cevan65]

At work so I can't post the picture directly.

Here is the amazon page for that bouncer filter. Mine is the only customer image.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01JWO5RK2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I've tried that filter both from boil kettle to fermentor and from fermentor to keg and IMHO, the filter is too coarse to be effective.

 

[Indian_villager]

I've tried that filter both from boil kettle to fermentor and from fermentor to keg and IMHO, the filter is too coarse to be effective.

My goal with the flow to the keg is to stop any pieces that are just big enough to plug up the liquid post. Any smaller and I dont care, those will crash to the floor of the keg while cooling and carbonating and will be purged out with the first pull or 2 from the keg. They also sell a 50 mesh insert if you want to catch the smaller particles, but you will quickly plug that up.

 

[Smellyglove]

I didn't read the whole thread, I sort of stopped when I read that "after two weeks" they taste like they taste.

I'd say you'd want to treat your IPA's like a hefeweizen. Flip the keg upside down before each sitting. You're pouring out all the good stuff in one pour if you don't flip it. The good stuff has weight and it gathers on the bottom of the keg. That's at least mye experience, and I flip the kegs and they last longer with the initial flavor.

 

[Andoshbrewing]

Wow. I really feel I got a few good ideas from these suggestions. Thank you all again.
This is my first thread on a homebrew forum, I have mostly just consulted homebrew friends. But I think this forum is a great tool.

To answer some questions, for my NEIPAs, I do the usual warrior in the begginin of boil... ( .5 oz for 60 minutes) let’s say

And the rest of the hops below 170 degrees, usually 4-6oz of hops like citra mosaic galexy type, in a big grain bag, for about 20 mins with chiller off and peridically carefully moving the bag around.
Then once at pitch temp using auto siphon into primary.
Shake vigorously.
Pitch yeast.
Then at around day 3, dump some hops in,
Then at around day 14, transfer to secondary with dry hops or sometimes to keg with dry hops.
Sometimes take dry hops out after a week in keezer under pressure.
Sometimes dry hop in purged keg for a week before keezer.

Closed system for transfering and cold crashing I have not tried but would consist of low pressure from co2 tank into airlock hole in bung.
Only closed system transfering I do is from secondary into purged keg with pressure relief on the gas side. No co2 into secondary to accommodate lower pressure, but want to try that.