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Iodophor subsitute?

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DeanRIowa

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I read somewhere I might be able to use a Iodine teat chemical from a Farm store, here is a picture of what I found for around $11 per gallon.


Would this work?
What is the amount to use per gallon? It says not to dilute.
Is it safe as a non rinse?

Any ideas would be great.
 

Changeduser123

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After reading more about this, 1% of iodine corresponds to a solution of 10 000 ppm. The recommended amount for homebrewing to use as a no rinse sanitizer is 12.5ppm ....

I would not use this as a no rinse sanitizer for homebrewing if it is not documented. And for some subjects, HBT is not what I call a reliable source of information. Do not poison yourself just because someone on this forum tells you it should be safe.
 

android

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i thought about using one of those teat sanitizers back in the day but i could never find the "go ahead" statement anywhere. i would just play it safe and get a sanitizer than has been proven to work with brewing.

looks like there's a winery/brewing supply store in Parkersburg (Blue Stem Winery) that isn't too far from you that carries Iodophor and StarSan. if you're ever in des moines, visit Beer Crazy. and plenty of online vendors to get sanitizer from obviously.
 

audger

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if you are looking to DIY or cheap out, buy some pure iodine crystals and make your own. i do this for things that i dont need to be accurate, like keeping the water bath in my chill chamber clean and clear. dissolve the proper amount of iodine crystals in a small amount of grain alcohol (use grain if you are going to use this for sanitizing, i just use rubbing alcohol as im not using it for food-contact surfaces), then add the mix to the correct volume of water. boom- sanitizer.

the reason i dont use this instead of starsan is simply because starsan is almost idiot proof and comparably cheap. i would have to pay much closer attention to weighting the crystals and mixing proper ratios in order to have a reasonable certainty of sanitizing power. i am way too lazy.
 

postal_penguin

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Well since 1% = 1 part per hundred = 10,000ppm you can dilute it to the 12.5ppm easily.

C1V1 = C2V2. So (12.5ppm)(5 gal) = (10,000ppm)(V2)
V2 = 0.00625 gallons which is about 5 teaspoons.

So add 5 teaspoons to 5 gallons of water and you have 12.5ppm of iodine. From those measurements I almost would wager that iodophor is just teat sanitizer in smaller bottles and jacked in price.
 

Revvy

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I and quite a few others on here have been sucessfully using that for years. Like postal_penguin posted you just need to up the amount you use.

Iodophors have been used as sanitizers in the dairy industry forever, it was later that they were incoporated into brewing, and homebrewing specifically....

They don't call it iodophor in the dairy industry, they call it diary sanitizer or teat wash. Technically iodophor is a trade name I think owned by BTF, like xerox. Though Technically iodophors are;

An Iodophor is a preparation containing iodine complexed with a solubilizing agent, such as a surfactant or povidone (forming povidone-iodine). The result is a water-soluble material that releases free iodine when in solution. Iodophors are prepared by mixing iodine with the solubilizing agent; heat can be used to speed up the reaction.
But commonly when you go to a beer store you and ask for iodophor they will give you that. But in farm and feed you call it iodine sanitizer, teat wash, teat dip or something like that.

but it IS the same thing.

I get the stuff from tractor supply company by Dionne. It's much cheaper by the gallon than beerstore iodophor.



http://www.tractorsupply.com/livest...und-care/dionne-gentle-iodine-1-1-gal-2209723

The nice thing is that it foams up a bit like starsan when you add water to it.

Since it is used to meet the stringent safety requirments for milk processing/milk handling, it is more than suitable for our needs.

The standard dillution for 1.5% titratable iodine is 1 tablespoon/5 gallons. DIfferent brands will require a different dillution ratio.

This is a good breakdown of various iodophors and their dillution.

Iodophors

Postby DaaB on Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:50 pm
Iodophor and Betadine/Videne

Iodophor is a combination of iodine and an agent such as Povidone to make it water soluable.

Iodophor solution is dilluted with water and it releases free iodine, which is an effective bactericide and fungicide, it kills bacteria, mould and wild yeast that could spoil your beer.

Preperation: To make an effective no rinse solution it should be diluted to no less than 12.5ppm and no more than 25ppm. (more than 25ppm requires rinsing).

Below are the various dilution rates for the different brands of iodophor to produce solutions of 12.5ppm, they vary with the amount of free iodine in the iodophor product.

Dillution Rates (for 12.5ppm):

Betadine (1% free iodine) dillution is 1.25ml/l .

Videne (is a direct replacement for Betadine), suggest using as Betadine unless new info comes to light.

BTF iodophor (tbc not quoted or analysed) dillution is 0.78ml/l

Brupaks iodophor (analysed at 2.1% free iodine) dillution is 0.6ml/l

Instructions for use: The item being sanitised should be kept wet with an iodophor solution for 30 seconds or more then allowed to drip dry (or almost dry). Hand sprayers are ideal for wetting surfaces to be sanitised by iodophor.

Effectiveness: Iodophor's effectiveness can be approximated by it's colour. As long as the colour hasn't faded from that of the original preparation there is still the required level of iodine available for effective sanitisation.

When making a preparation of iodophor, filtered water is recommended (such as water that has passed through a Brita filter to remove chlorine and chloramines). Iodophor solutions made with filtered water have been shown to maintain their colour and therefore effectiveness for longer.

Tests have shown that the bactericidal activity (effectiveness) greatly reduces with an increase in ph. Solutions at ph 3-5 are significantly more effective than at ph7. If you live in a hard water area it is advisable to add 1 tsp of citric acid to the solution.

Iodophor solutions that are within the recommended ph range maintain their colour and therefore effectiveness for longer.

Brupaks iodohpor has already been acidified, although again people in hard water areas may find 1/2-1 tsp of citric acid is required to bring the ph to within the most effective range.

Cost: Brupaks Iodophor = £4.50 (17/04/08 ) for 250mls
0.6mls/l dillution = 416L of solution
This is also an invaluable article.

http://www.bayareamashers.org/content/maindocs/iodophor.htm

If you are lucky enough to find an iodine/phosphoric acid mix, which quite a lot of dairy sanitizers contain, it is even better. It is like having an iodophor/starsan mix.

But there's been lots of "go ahead" discussions about using it here, and on other forums as well.
 
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DeanRIowa

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Revvy,

Have you used what I am purposing to use then?

Does 5 tsp per 5 gallon sound right?

Will it stain the plastic if I only soak for 2 minutes or so?

thanks,
Dean
 

Revvy

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Revvy,

Have you used what I am purposing to use then?

Does 5 tsp per 5 gallon sound right?

Will it stain the plastic if I only soak for 2 minutes or so?

thanks,
Dean
I've not used that specific brand. I use the Dionne Gentle Iodine that I linked above.

Yeah if that's the ratio I would do what penguin said and go with 5 teaspoons.

Any iodine based sanitizer runs the risk of staining, BUT at the normal dillution it is a light straw color and that shouldn't stain too much.

And if it does, so what. The staining (or even iodine odor on the plastic) rarely if ever affects the beer.
 

sudsmcgee

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Does the lower concentration, and therefore higher per-use serving requirement, balance out with the lower cost? In other words, do you actually save money?
 

riromero

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I use gentle wound spray in a bottle that looks identical to the one Revvy posted. It's been several years since I looked, but at that time the MSDS for the wound spray product had ingredients identical to the brewery specific sanitizer I used previously. This isn't just iodine. It is 1% iodine in an iodophor preparation, just like in BTF. So the same dilutions apply for the wound spray as apply for BTF or any other 1% iodine brewery sanitizer.
 

Revvy

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Does the lower concentration, and therefore higher per-use serving requirement, balance out with the lower cost? In other words, do you actually save money?
I think I paid 8 bucks for a gallon of tractor supply Iodine. I may need to use a Tablespoon and a HALF of it per 5 gallons as opposed to 1 tbs per 5 gallons of btf iodophor.

A 4 ounce bottle of BTF from most homebrew retailers sells for 4 bucks.

Even if you have to use a little bit more, it still is much cheaper.
 

Marais7177

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I read somewhere I might be able to use a Iodine teat chemical from a Farm store, here is a picture of what I found for around $11 per gallon.


Would this work?
What is the amount to use per gallon? It says not to dilute.
Is it safe as a non rinse?

Any ideas would be great.
Iodine based teat dips and Iodine based brewing solutions are similar on a few levels, but the differences matter. They are similar in so far as they both use available iodine to kill microbes and typically have issues with high pH or high temperature environments.
You can certainly use one as a substitute for the other, but probably not with the same detail and quality of results.

As far as differences, it is hard to put together an all inclusive list since Iodine formulas can differ from brand to brand on both the teat dip and the brewing sanitizer level. But, here are some big picture things to think about:

1. Additives – Teat dips are designed to go on soft tissue for extended applications. Most will have an additive package designed to address things like lubrication, irritation and demineralization in order to keep the milk producing animal, healthy and happy.

2. Foaming – By design, teat dips excessively foam. This allows for easier application and coverage with less overall material. On the brewing side, high foaming Iodophors are not popular since they take longer to drain from the carboy.

3. Application – While $11.00 per gallon may seem like a good deal, be sure you are comparing apples to apples. BTF Iodophor is 0.5 oz per 5 gallons for 12.5 ppm. If the teat dip is 3 oz per 5 gallons, the comparative price due to concentration is now $66.00 per gallon.

Marais7177
 
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DeanRIowa

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Revvy,

I ended up buying the same chemical you use from tractor supply company by Dionne. I need 2 1/2 gallons and ended up using 1 Tablespoon, but my water didn't have any color, do I need to bump up the quantity of the chemical? What rate do you use?

thanks,

Dean
 

piojo

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At 1% what rate should I be using per gallon of water?
You want to go for 12.5 ppm for a fairly quick kill (25 ppm for a faster kill, and a more careful rinse). You get 12.5 ppm by adding that solution (1% iodine, or 10,000 ppm) at 1.25 mL per liter of water. 1.25 mL/L * 5 gallons = 24 mL. That's equivalent to what another poster suggested: 5 tsp per 5 gallons.

(Sorry for bumping this old thread, but I hate to see it end with a question.)
 
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DeanRIowa

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Thank you for the response, I basically add 3 tb per 5 gallons. Is this a problems if I add a little extra like that?

thanks,
Dean
 

piojo

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I basically add 3 tb per 5 gallons. Is this a problems if I add a little extra like that?
The FDA wouldn't like it (they prefer 12.5-25 ppm on food surfaces), but besides that, just let it drain well. I read a study that said commercial iodophor is most effective when diluted 50-100x (resulting in 100-200 ppm iodine), so adding too much will only make it more effective up to that point. You'll want to let it drain/dry a little more is all. And there will be more risk of staining. (Warning: I mostly just have book learning, so I may have missed something experiential.)
 
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DeanRIowa

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The FDA wouldn't like it (they prefer 12.5-25 ppm on food surfaces), but besides that, just let it drain well. I read a study that said commercial iodophor is most effective when diluted 50-100x (resulting in 100-200 ppm iodine), so adding too much will only make it more effective up to that point. You'll want to let it drain/dry a little more is all. And there will be more risk of staining. (Warning: I mostly just have book learning, so I may have missed something experiential.)
Thank you for the response, which is very helpful.

Dean
 

FatDragon

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It blows my mind that a thread that's seven years old gets resurrected with a response to a question asked in the last post, and the original poster chimes in four and a half hours later to continue the conversation as if he had asked the question yesterday, instead of seven years ago as of yesterday.

This is a wonderful moment in internet history.

@DeanRIowa - Please tell me you're still using the same gallon of teat dip. That would make this momentous occasion all that much more incredible.
 
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DeanRIowa

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It blows my mind that a thread that's seven years old gets resurrected with a response to a question asked in the last post, and the original poster chimes in four and a half hours later to continue the conversation as if he had asked the question yesterday, instead of seven years ago as of yesterday.

This is a wonderful moment in internet history.

@DeanRIowa - Please tell me you're still using the same gallon of teat dip. That would make this momentous occasion all that much more incredible.
Not a momentous occasion, sorry, but actually not using that one gallon of iodine teat dip, I did go with an iodine wound heal solution at 1% for a bit and recently purchased some StarSan. I had given up brewing for a bit, and recently returned brewing again.

thanks,
Dean
 

FatDragon

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What impresses me no end is that you've made a grand total of 41 posts on HBT, you get mentioned in a 7-year-old thread, and are johnny on the spot with a post.

That, in my book, is responsiveness!
Yeah, I noticed the post count too after I made my post. A regular contributor with a high post count returning to the conversation so promptly would be impressive enough, much less someone who's posted 40 times in seven years.
Not a momentous occasion, sorry, but actually not using that one gallon of iodine teat dip, I did go with an iodine wound heal solution at 1% for a bit and recently purchased some StarSan. I had given up brewing for a bit, and recently returned brewing again.

thanks,
Dean
I'm just joking about the momentous occasion thing, just noting that it's extremely unusual for the original poster of a question in an internet conversation like this to return to the discussion so promptly when it starts up again after seven years idle.

I used iodine wound sanitizer for brewing for a couple years myself. At just over a dollar (equivalent of about $1.25 in CNY) for a 500 ml bottle at 1% dilution it beat the pants off of brewer's iodophor in spite of being almost the exact same thing. I moved on to peracetic acid for another couple years, which was a cheap alternative to Starsan that didn't stain and had a longer semi-effective life after dilution than iodophor, but no foam like Starsan and I had to mix and dilute the chemicals every brewday and bottling day, which I was never very comfortable with. I finally bit the bullet about half a year ago and bought an 8 oz bottle of Starsan and I'm glad I did. I want to say that I don't know what took me so long, but I know exactly what took me so long: I spent less on sanitizer over my first five years of brewing than I did on that one bottle of Starsan. Still, it was a good purchase and I'm glad I finally went for it.

Welcome back to the hobby!
 

piojo

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As the answerer, I'm impressed as well! But @DeanRIowa, in the spirit of correctness, I think the amount you cited is at the upper limit of "no rinse" (perhaps 28 ppm iodine if my mental math is at all trustworthy), so I wouldn't worry too much if the bottles are still wet. I've been rebutted about that. Rinse away.

I used iodine wound sanitizer for brewing for a couple years myself. At just over a dollar (equivalent of about $1.25 in CNY) for a 500 ml bottle at 1% dilution it beat the pants off of brewer's iodophor in spite of being almost the exact same thing. I moved on to peracetic acid for another couple years, which was a cheap alternative to Starsan that didn't stain and had a longer semi-effective life after dilution than iodophor, but no foam like Starsan and I had to mix and dilute the chemicals every brewday and bottling day, which I was never very comfortable with. I finally bit the bullet about half a year ago and bought an 8 oz bottle of Starsan and I'm glad I did.
I didn't know Chinese pharmacies sold big, cheap bottles. They don't in Hong Kong. (If you mean 1% iodine, that's a screaming deal. If 1% iodophor, that's a fairly average price compared to products in the US.)

I never made peracetic acid because I don't have the gear to measure it, plus it sounds annoying. But a home user would never find anything more effective. I used acidified bleach from the start a few years ago, since it's hard to mess it up, it's no-rinse, and it's practically free. I'm switching to iodophor because I can visually see when it stops working, there's no risk of off-flavors, and it's cheap if you buy it in the right places. Cheap is important in HK because a homebrewer probably won't have room to keep a 5 gallon bucket of sanitizer stashed somewhere. You've gotta make it fresh. I considered brewing my own Star San using phosphoric and DBS acid, but that foam is really annoying. (I will augment my iodophor with acid and surfactant to drop the pH and help it wet surfaces, but I won't add enough to make it foam.) I'll keep using Star San in a spray bottle, though. I made chlorine dioxide a few times, and it's nifty but without being able to measure the concentration, I don't know whether it needs a half hour soak or gives immediate sterilization.
 
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FatDragon

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I didn't know Chinese pharmacies sold big, cheap bottles. They don't in Hong Kong. (If you mean 1% iodine, that's a screaming deal. If 1% iodophor, that's a fairly average price compared to products in the US.)
I actually bought it from a homebrew shop. I always tacked it onto other orders and didn't have to worry about shipping, so I never bothered going to a pharmacy to see if I could buy it there or if you'd have to buy it from a medical supply company. I'm pretty sure it was 1% (maybe 1.5%, it's been a while) iodophor, so not an amazing deal compared to bulk iodophor in the States but a lot cheaper than Five Star IO-Star or BTF Iodophor from a homebrew shop anywhere in the world.

I might have it wrong calling it wound sanitizer as well, it might have been intended for sterilizing medical equipment, I just remember it was for medical use. My reading is a lot better now than it was then, and I doubt I bothered reading anything other than whatever helped me get the right dilution rate.
 

piojo

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I'm pretty sure it was 1% (maybe 1.5%, it's been a while) iodophor
That price is comparable or more expensive than 32 oz of IO Star (from a cheap online store), but the real advantage is that you don't need to invest in the next ten years of sanitizer. It's usually valuable to buy the size you need rather than the size the retailer wants to sell you. On the other hand, there is psychological utility in having bulk product: I find that when I have a lot, I'm less worried about using it sparingly.
 

FatDragon

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That price is comparable or more expensive than 32 oz of IO Star (from a cheap online store), but the real advantage is that you don't need to invest in the next ten years of sanitizer. It's usually valuable to buy the size you need rather than the size the retailer wants to sell you. On the other hand, there is psychological utility in having bulk product: I find that when I have a lot, I'm less worried about using it sparingly.
I guess I misunderstood your question. It's an iodophor solution that's 1% iodine, and looking at the shop link, it is indeed labeled as a wound disinfectant. They definitely sell small bottles of the same stuff at pharmacies here, I'm not sure if most pharmacies sell half liters or not. Still, for $1.25/per from the homebrew shop, it beats the pants off of IO Star's price point (not to mention the ~2x markup of buying Five Star products in China), and at the bulk purchase prices from other shops (as low as 70 cents/per for five or 60 cents/per for ten, after shipping) it even beats those gallons of teat dip from the OP.
 
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