Infection Analysis

[jscherff]

Despite freakishly meticulous sanitation practices, I have had several batches of beer show signs of infection. The most recent was a Bell's Two-Hearted IPA clone that was delicious and perfectly carbonated after a little over a week of bottle conditioning, but two weeks later tasted "off" and slowly oozed foam for 15 minutes after removing the cap (before pouring and without any agitation).

I have read posts suggesting that this is a symptom of uneven priming; that is, not stirring the priming solution into the beer (or not giving it enough time to disperse naturally) before bottling, but I wouldn't think an over-primed bottle would lead to off flavors.

Questions:

1. Has anyone experienced this slowly-oozing foam phenomenon? After opening a chilled 22-ounce bomber and setting it upright in the kitchen sink, the foam climbed up the neck of the bottle and overflowed, and continued to slowly flow like lava over the mouth of the bottle for at least another 15 minutes.
2. Is the slowly-oozing foam a "classic symptom" of a particular kind of infection? I have heard the term "gusher bug" [Palmer], but I think this is just a generalization for unwanted microorganisms of any kind.
3. Are there brewing laboratories to which I can send a sample for analysis? Wyeast labs appears to offer such a service, but only for commercial brewers.

My biggest concern is that there's something lurking in my equipment, waiting to infect my next batch. I want to know what the microorganism is, where it's likely hiding, and how to kill it.

P.S., Someone is sure to point out that only living organisms can be "infected" and that the correct term is "contamination." Sorry, but I become quite attached to my homebrew and "infection" just seems more fitting to me emotionally - like a sick child.

 

[lowtones84]

Can you describe the "off flavor" you are experiencing? How do you prime when you bottle your batch up and condition it? Over carbonation can certainly lead to a certain bite that could be perceived as an off flavor.

 

[MedicMang]

I had an issue where I thought my sanitation practices were perfect but I got 3 infections in a row. We'll say that I was frustrated. I threw away all plastic and bought new. This includes all tubing, wine thief, autosiphon, buckets, etc.

I also realized that my sanitation was far from perfect. ANYTHING that touches the beer after it's cooled needs to be sanitized. I noticed that the ball valve on my brew kettle had a little gunk in it even after cleaning it thoroughly during the last use. I now soak everything the night before, rinse, soak in starsan, then wrap in tinfoil until use.

I also have cats and litter boxes strewn through out the house. Thus made me wonder if cat particles were in the air affecting my beer. I try not to work in the same room as them. Grinding your grain in the same room that you are working throws natural lacto in the air. Along side with all of this, whenever I transfer, I cover everything that is open with foil. Also a squirt bottle is starsan is fantastic in case you put a dirty hand or something on an already sanitized piece of equipment.

Ever sense these changes, I have not had a problem.




Sent from Cheese Doodle Land.

 

[jscherff]

lowtones84: I didn't describe the off flavor because it's hard to describe. "Sour" is not quite it. Your term, "a certain bite," comes a little closer - maybe "a certain bite with a hint of sour." I left the beer in the sink overnight and tasted it (uncarbonated) the next morning and much of the "offness" was gone - though it was still far from delicious.

 

[jscherff]

MedicMang: I'm a veritable Nazi about sanitation - I don't even allow other people in the same room once the beer has chilled. That said, you've opened my eyes to a couple things:

• "I noticed that the ball valve on my brew kettle had a little gunk in it even after cleaning it thoroughly during the last use." - I haven't given this enough attention. I assumed that brushing and rinsing combined with the heat of the boil would kill anything in the ball valve. I like your approach of disassembling, cleaning, sanitizing, and wrapping. I'm going to try that.
• "I also have cats and litter boxes strewn through out the house." - The room where I do most of my work is our recreation/billiards room. It's also where the cat's litter box is located. I'm hoping SWMBO will let me move it to a different room.

I don't grind my own grain, so that's not an issue, and I also cover everything with aluminum foil when I transfer (or plastic wrap soaked in Star-San). I even stuff sanitized plastic wrap into the mouth of the carboy around the siphon when racking. (And I rack to secondary only when absolutely necessary.)

I am at the point where I'm going to replace everything that isn't stainless steel.

Thank you for the pointers.

 

[jscherff]

MedicMang: How thoroughly do you clean your ball valve? I took mine apart and, true enough, there was significant gunk. But it seems like a pretty big hassle to take everything apart clean, re-tape, and re-assemble every brew session. Do you take yours apart, or just soak and sanitize?

 

[lowtones84]

It's hard to pin down, but describing how you prime your batch for bottle conditioning would help. Uneven carbonation or simply overcarbonation can be bad. I had that problem for a little while. Do you boil sugar and water, then rack on top of it in the bottling bucket?

 

[MedicMang]

MedicMang: How thoroughly do you clean your ball valve? I took mine apart and, true enough, there was significant gunk. But it seems like a pretty big hassle to take everything apart clean, re-tape, and re-assemble every brew session. Do you take yours apart, or just soak and sanitize?

I just remove it from the pot and boil the whole thing or a PBW soak if I am lazy. I just make sure that I work the valve a whole bunch while doing either.


Sent from Cheese Doodle Land.

 

[jscherff]

lowtones84: Here's my procedure:

1. Dissolve enough corn sugar or table sugar in 2-3 cups of filtered water to achieve desired volume of carbonation. (I use Northern Brewer's calculator. Amount of sugar varies based on style and kind of sugar used.)
2. Boil priming solution for 15 minutes, then cover, chill, and set aside.
3. Thoroughly clean and sanitize the bottling bucket, auto-siphon, racking tube (silicone), and bottling wand, then fill bottling wand with vodka.
4. Place sanitized lid on bottling bucket. I use the fermenting lid with the hole and grommet for the airlock.
5. Fill the bottling bucket with CO2 through the spigot.
6. Give auto-siphon and racking tube another sanitizer rinse, insert the auto-siphon in the carboy, and insert the tube into the bottling bucket so it just touches the bottom.
7. Cover the bottling bucket as well as possible with the lid, then cover the rest of the way with a paper towel soaked in sanitizer.
8. Transfer enough beer to fill above the spigot, then stop. I have a hose crimp to do this.
9. Draw just enough beer for a gravity reading, then turn the spigot upside down and fill it with vodka.
10. Gently pour in priming solution without splashing, getting as close to the beer as possible without touching the beer or bucket walls. (I wipe the outside of the pot with a vodka-soaked paper towel beforehand, so even if I touch something, it's probably not going to hurt.)
11. Finish transferring beer.
12. Remove racking tube, secure lid on bottling bucket, and plug hole in lid with sanitzed rubber stop.
13. Transfer bottling bucket to raised surface and let sit for at least 1/2 hour to allow priming solution to disperse and sediment to settle.
14. Drain vodka from racking cane and spigot, and attach cane to spigot.
15. Remove plug from airlock hole, then bottle using sanitized bottles and lids. I sanitize the bottles ahead of time, stage them in a milk crate, and cover the tops with a long section of paper towel soaked in sanitizer. I peel back the paper towel one row of bottles at a time as I fill them.

Note that I do not stir the priming solution in. I assumed that the gentle whirlpool action from transferring the beer followed by the 1/2 hour rest would ensure that the priming solution is evenly distributed.

 

[lowtones84]

Yeah, that sounds like a pretty thorough (and "correct") process, and the whirlpool from siphoning in is usually enough to mix it well. I tend to stir gently afterward just to make sure but I know many people don't. Do you calculate priming sugar by amount that's in the fermenting vessel before racking to the bottling bucket? Do you compensate for loss do to trub, etc.?

 

[jscherff]

Do you calculate priming sugar by amount that's in the fermenting vessel before racking to the bottling bucket? Do you compensate for loss do to trub, etc.?

I try to. I don't always get it exactly right, but I'm usually within +/- a quart.

 

[jscherff]

I tend to stir gently afterward just to make sure but I know many people don't.

I'm going to start adding a gentle stir and see how my next few batches turn out. Since I wrote this post, we've had several more from this batch – one was over-carbonated undrinkable, one was over-carbonated and just a little off, and the rest were delightful. So I'm back to dirty bottles versus uneven priming... need to rule out one or the other.

Thanks for your insight.

 

[lowtones84]

It does sound like you're very meticulous with sanitation (more than I am for sure) so to me it does seem like the bottles or uneven priming would be the issue. Sometimes these things can drive you crazy Good luck!

 

[KIAKillerXJ]

I would never brew if I was that anal. Good grief.

 

[jscherff]

Thanks for the help, KIAKiller.

 

[lukebeulah]

How long before bottling are you sanitizing your bottles? Hours before or days?
When I bottled, I would always do this on bottling day. Just starsan and drain off. Bottle right on top of that. I am wondering if letting them dry and then relying on a paper towel to protect them is working.


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[KeyWestBrewing]

How long before bottling are you sanitizing your bottles? Hours before or days?
When I bottled, I would always do this on bottling day. Just starsan and drain off. Bottle right on top of that. I am wondering if letting them dry and then relying on a paper towel to protect them is working.


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Agreed with this. If your using a no rinse sanitizer don't worry about letting them dry just empty them and fill. Another thing worth checking is the accuracy of your scale. Try weighing a nickel.. It should weigh 5 grams or extremely close to it. Also sure your scale is on a level surface when using it.
I don't think an infection would disappear over night by letting the beer sit out. Either there's something going on that your not catching or its a priming issue. Though that wouldn't explain the off flavor.

 

[jscherff]

How long before bottling are you sanitizing your bottles?

I sanitize the bottles, stage them in the milk crate, cover them with the soaked paper towel, and immediately begin bottling. Just before filling each bottle, I dump the last bit of sanitizer which has collected in the bottom. I usually cap after every 20 or so bottles.

 

[jscherff]

Try weighing a nickel.. It should weigh 5 grams or extremely close to it.

This is an awesome tip. Thank you!

 

[QoB]

I could help you but only if you refer to it as "contamination."

 

[QoB]

lowtones84: I didn't describe the off flavor because it's hard to describe. "Sour" is not quite it. Your term, "a certain bite," comes a little closer - maybe "a certain bite with a hint of sour." I left the beer in the sink overnight and tasted it (uncarbonated) the next morning and much of the "offness" was gone - though it was still far from delicious.

It's possible that if you used too much priming sugar or the distribution was uneven the bottles became overcarbonated. In that case there was some refermentation in the bottle and the beer got thin bodied and the taste profile changed - drying out the beer and causing the hops to taste sharp. A Two Hearted clone should be more in the FG 1.014 range. Let it go flat and take a reading.
Other than that - maybe get a new bottling bucket... Cheers!

 

[RD400F]

A few things...

If you really care about your beer you will need to be patient and leave it alone.

Two weeks is not enough time to bottle condition and it could be the reason you are getting gushers as the CO2 hasn't had time to sink back into the beer. Not to mention, every bottle is different. A bit over a week is not perfectly carbed or conditioned. Try 4.

Relax, throw it in the closet, brew something else and give it a couple more weeks. Time is your enemy and your friend here...up to you to decide which. My 6% belgian blonde ale is carbed by 4 weeks but that doesn't mean it's any good...6 months is more like it.

Another thing to consider that sanitation is only one part of it...yeast can play a huge part too.

How healthy were your yeast? How long did your beer sit in primary/secondary before you bottled? Did you repitch fresh yeast for bottling? I've made some really crummy Belgian dark strong ales all because I neglected to use enough yeast and I got a whole ton of acetaldehyde alcopops instead of what I wanted.

My two cents.

 

[jscherff]

How healthy were your yeast? How long did your beer sit in primary/secondary before you bottled? Did you repitch fresh yeast for bottling?

The yeast was very healthy. I generally make a gallon of starter at 1.030-1.040. I use around 2/3 of it to grow the yeast (fresh) on a stir plate in an E-flask a little over a day ahead of time, then cold crash, decant on the morning if brew day, and "wake up" the yeast in the remaining starter on the stir plate while I brew.

Most of my non-big beers do about a week each in primary/secondary, but I'll leave a beer in secondary an extra week if I have any doubt. Big beers stay longer. I have a Ten-FIDY clone that is 21 days in primary and 60 days in secondary. I also don't rack unless I absolutely have to.

Lastly I sometimes pitch bottling yeast or Champagne yeast when bottling high-ABV beers, beers that have been a long time in secondary, or beers in which I've used finings. I learned that lesson early with an 11% ABV imperial red that was completely flat after over a month of bottle conditioning.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Was this one of those beers you only gave a week in the primary? If so then I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the issues your having could be acetaldehyde. Your description of the off flavor sounds like it could be it and the process is right for it to be happening as well.

Quoted from the wiki....
"Acetaldehyde is a compound formed by an intermediate step in the conversion of sugar to ethanol by yeast. Under ordinary circumstances, any acetaldehyde formed during fermentation will eventually be taken up and converted by the yeast. The most common cause is removing the beer from the yeast too early, before the yeast has a chance to complete fermentation."

 

[jscherff]

Was this one of those beers you only gave a week in the primary? If so then I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the issues your having could be acetaldehyde.

According to my brew log, I brewed on February 22, transferred to secondary six days later on February 28, and bottled two weeks later on March 15. Whenever I transfer to secondary, I try to suck up some of the yeast cake to make sure I have plenty enough in secondary to continue the fermentation, plus I assumed that the yeast still "gainfully employed" would be in suspension anyway. Is that not enough to clean up the acetaldehyde?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

According to my brew log, I brewed on February 22, transferred to secondary six days later on February 28, and bottled two weeks later on March 15. Whenever I transfer to secondary, I try to suck up some of the yeast cake to make sure I have plenty enough in secondary to continue the fermentation, plus I assumed that the yeast still "gainfully employed" would be in suspension anyway. Is that not enough to clean up the acetaldehyde?

Try leaving the beer in the primary until its finished fermenting and the yeast have had a few days to settle out. Probably somewhere in the range of 2 weeks. Then if you want to secondary that's your choice. I think your moving the beer along too quick and that could be what's leaving you some off flavors.

 

[QoB]

According to my brew log, I brewed on February 22, transferred to secondary six days later on February 28, and bottled two weeks later on March 15. Whenever I transfer to secondary, I try to suck up some of the yeast cake to make sure I have plenty enough in secondary to continue the fermentation, plus I assumed that the yeast still "gainfully employed" would be in suspension anyway. Is that not enough to clean up the acetaldehyde?

What is this method? Terrible!

Stop using secondary fermentation. Brew your batch and let it ferment in the same vessel until it's done. Check and see that the yeast has dropped - take a reading and them you're ready to go - but don't do this for at least TEN days - sometimes 14. Generally the top is fairly clear with some larger cola sized bubbles but the krausen has fallen. Then siphon to your bottling bucket with the corn sugar sitting at the bottom. Gently stir. Bottle.

You were getting foaming probably because you were transferring fermenting beer. Maybe someone already commented on this but when I read this post the fire alarm went on full blast and I started typing. :fro:

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

What is this method? Terrible!

Stop using secondary fermentation. Brew your batch and let it ferment in the same vessel until it's done. Check and see that the yeast has dropped - take a reading and them you're ready to go - but don't do this for at least TEN days - sometimes 14. Generally the top is fairly clear with some larger cola sized bubbles but the krausen has fallen. Then siphon to your bottling bucket with the corn sugar sitting at the bottom. Gently stir. Bottle.

You were getting foaming probably because you were transferring fermenting beer. Maybe someone already commented on this but when I read this post the fire alarm went on full blast and I started typing. :fro:

I agree, 6 days primary is not a lot of time. In a larger brewery where the pitch, oxygen, and temperature are dialed in this could be done perhaps, but at the homebrew scale it seems REALLY fast.

I'm in the camp of no secondary as well, and aside from a strange brew a few months ago I have no problems with clarity. I let it in the primary for 2 - 4 weeks depending on strength and my schedule.

Now and then I'll age in a secondary for really big beers, lagers, fruity stuff. Or if I'm waiting for a keg to open up.

 

[jscherff]

Stop using secondary fermentation. Brew your batch and let it ferment in the same vessel until it's done.

I agree, especially after listening to Jamil Zainasheff and others rant about this, and I have already changed my approach. You probably missed this statement I made in my 4/18 post: "I also don't rack unless I absolutely have to."

What I used to mean by this is that I would rack only if dry-hopping. However, starting shortly after the batch this thread is about, I rack only in these situations:

1. The beer is going to remain in the carboy more than 30 days, after which (from what I understand) yeast autolysis begins to occur,
2. The beer has an extended dry-hop schedule (e.g., a Citra DIPA clone I did that had small dry-hop additions every 3 days for over 2 weeks) because I have heard that sitting on dry hops too long imparts grassy flavors, and
3. I need one of my six-gallon carboys for a new batch and the batch currently occupying the big carboy will fit in a smaller one.

I might also rack if I have to add an unusual ingredient during secondary, like a pound of PB2 powder. That stuff is not easy to get into a glass carboy because its clumpy, and if I'm going to eff it up, I'd rather do so in an empty carboy before racking than in a carboy full of beer

I have also started letting beer ferment longer - a minimum of three weeks versus a minimum of two - and I'm not afraid to go longer if I'm feeling lazy or if I think the beer needs to clarify a little more.

FWIW, I'm very thankful for the great advice I'm getting here - and humbled by the time people are putting into some very thoughtful and comprehensive responses. Relative to most people on this site, I'm still pretty new and I'm eager to learn anything that will make me better at this craft.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I wouldn't worry about yeast autolysis. I've read posts of guys forgetting about beers in primary for nearly a year with no issues. I'd say your beer is fine where it is until your ready. Its one of the few times the beer is on your schedule as opposed to the other way around lol. Post back with the results of some of your next brews to see if your off flavors have gone away. I have a feeling you won't have them here on out. Happy brewing!

 

[jscherff]

Post back with the results of some of your next brews to see if your off flavors have gone away. I have a feeling you won't have them here on out. Happy brewing!

I definitely will. I think what it comes down to for this batch is either (a) uneven priming, or (b) dirty bottles. I'm leaning toward (a). Either way, I give the cleanliness and sanitation of my bottles a lot more scrutiny now, and (because of this thread) have started giving my beer a [very] gentle stir or two with sanitized stainless spoon after priming.

Thanks for the feedback.