Induction Cooktops

[myxologyst66]

Aloha homebrew brethren, I have been trying to put together a cheap, electric, step mashing system and came across an infomercial for an induction cooktop. I did a bit of research and found out that a commercial grade cooktop can be purchased for a few hundred dollars and the devices seem to have digital temp controls. Has anyone ever used these to heat a brew kettle/mash tun? Does the temp control work well. I read the induction cooking method doesn't work with aluminium or stainless steel (I have a kettle made of each one) but there does seem to be an adapter u can purchase to make it work with any metal. Any help or info from anyone who has used induction cooktops would be awesome. Thanx!

 

[shroomzofdoom]

You can get a metal disk which allows the induction unit to work on aluminum pots but these are a bit less efficient than using an induction friendly pot. If a magnet sticks to the pot, you are usually OK. IME, the clad aluminum pots with thick metal bottoms work very well. These are usually aluminum clad in some sort of steel. Al is really good at evenly distributing the heat, and the steel bottom is magnetic to allow the induction to work its magic.

I have one that we picked up for under $100 at target, but it's power settings are more like 1-6, rather than temps (150/200/etc). I have no experience with a professional unit, but I doubt the provided temp control would provide the specificity and control to be useful for mashing. there is no way to determine the temp of a liquid without direct measurement. Now, if one were to use a temp probe to provide temps to a controller, and the controller could send signal to the induction unit to control output-that would be killer.

 

[kzimmer0817]

I was about to raise a more general question: Is there any sort of way to boil 5 or more gallons of wort in a kettle using an external heat source?

I've surfed thru the forums and just about come to the conclusion that - other than cutting a hole into the kettle and installing an electric heating element - there is really no viable way to apply enough heat externally to a kettle to do 5+ full volume boils - especially with BIAB in which you often begin with 7 gal at the start of the boil. The guys doing stovetop brewing seem to be doing partial boils and topping off with water into the fermenter.

On a thread somewhere in this forum, someone commented that the heat transfer from hot plate > kettle > liquid is very inefficient when compared to that of an immersed heating element.

I read thru a multi-page thread on this site from someone who was scared to death to cut a hole into his kettle - despite having his "man-card" revoked by the forum. I'm not exactly "scared to death" to cut my kettle (I'm planning to cut the top from a free keg this afternoon); I just don't want to mess up a $100+ kettle.

Thanks,
Keith

 

[audger]

Is there any sort of way to boil 5 or more gallons of wort in a kettle using an external heat source?

sure there is... it just depends on how much energy/electricity (and money) you are willing to spend doing it. you *can* get 10kw hot plates/electric coils for a few hundred bucks... but if you can get the same performance out of a 2500w immersion element that costs $10, is it worth it?

the heat transfer from hot plate > kettle > liquid is very inefficient when compared to that of an immersed heating element.

its actually more like; hot plate > air gap of various size > kettle > liquid.
an immersion element is; element > liquid.

its just a difference in efficiency of heat transfer. with an immersion element, the stuff you are trying to heat (the water/wort) is directly contacting the source of the heat, making efficiency very high (upper 90's-%). nearly all energy that goes into the element gets put into the liquid.

 

[shroomzofdoom]

re: hot plate > kettle > liquid

The OP was referring to induction cooking, and I just wanted to distinguish between induction and electric cooking.

Induction =~84% efficiency
Electric cooktop=~74% efficiency
Hot water heater elements=~90% efficiency

There are many brewers using induction to boil and...I'll be...just found someone mashing with induction: http://www.northernbrewer.com/connect/2011/07/induction-brewing/

 

[JLo]

I have used an 1800W 120V Max Burton induction 'hot plate' and a 4 gallon kettle wrapped in Refletix to make 2.5 gallon batches. I also noticed the infomercial induction cooktop. With my 4 gallon pot I was able to get a gentle rolling boil. I doubt the 1000W induction cooktop could get the 4 gallon pot boiling with the lid off. Keep in mind that you will need a bunch of energy going into the pot to get the steam going. I was considering using a 3000W 240V Max Burton induction cooktop from Amazon with an 8 gallon Megapot from Northern Brewer. I like the idea of having a reusable electric stove and not having to punch holes in the kettle for elements.

4 Gallon Pot - http://www1.macys.com/shop/product/...pot-belgique-stainless-steel-16-qt.?ID=478441
8 gallon Megapot - http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/...tles/megapot-with-ball-valve-brewmometer.html
Max Burton 1800W - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MVN1M6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Max Burton 3000W - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0037Z7HQ0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I wound up running 240v into my garage for the 3000W, but just went with a Kai Boil kettle clone.

 

[DeafSmith]

I was about to raise a more general question: Is there any sort of way to boil 5 or more gallons of wort in a kettle using an external heat source?

I've surfed thru the forums and just about come to the conclusion that - other than cutting a hole into the kettle and installing an electric heating element - there is really no viable way to apply enough heat externally to a kettle to do 5+ full volume boils - especially with BIAB in which you often begin with 7 gal at the start of the boil.
.... I just don't want to mess up a $100+ kettle.

Thanks,
Keith

If you don't want to cut a hole in your brewpot and if you are willing to do some (well, actually, quite a bit of) work, you can do what I did. I got an old drop in range top from CL, cut it up, and built my own stove and mounted it on a cart. I can easily get 8 gallons up to a rolling boil with this thing and have continuous manual temp. control - I haven't tried to automate it and don't plan to, but it could be done. It works really well - the only problem is that if I haven't used it for a while I have to turn on the elements for about 10 minutes without the GFCI to bake out the moisture so that it doesn't trip the GFCI off. I just mounted a regular 30 amp relay in my spa panel and wired it in parallel with the GFI breaker so I can easily select with/without GFCI. Of course after I bake the moisture out of the elements I reenable the GFCI before I brew.

It works well with my 10 gallon Megapot, but if you have a taller, narrow pot, you probably won't be able to get the elements close enough together to avoid a lot of unused element area.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/lives-stovezilla-born-177317/

 

[audger]

Induction =~84% efficiency
Electric cooktop=~74% efficiency
Hot water heater elements=~90% efficiency

ive seen that 84% number for induction cookers in a few places, but have never seen anywhere near that in the real world. the 1998 dept of energy report that that number comes from isnt very specific on how they calculated it... somewhere near 60-70% efficiency is probably a more realistic estimate, especially when not using induction-specific pots. if your pot is off center on the cooktop, or isnt well electrically coupled to the induction coil, the efficiency goes down quickly. it also highly depends on the quality of the stove. a $30 1800w cooktop from amazon is never going to be 84% efficient.

immersion elements are normally 98% or higher (not counting losses from evaporating out of the top of the pot; just the path the heat travels into the liquid). nearly 100% of the heating element contacts the water, so there is nowhere to lose energy to.

 

[AnOldUR]

... somewhere near 60-70% efficiency is probably a more realistic estimate, especially when not using induction-specific pots.

Dunno. I think a magnet will either be attracted and it works or if not it won't. If you're using one of those adapter plates and a non-magnetic pot (300 grade stainless or aluminum), efficiency is a whole different story.

I have a 3500W induction plate and there is almost no heat loss. The only heat at the glass surface is what is radiated from the temperature inside the pot.

It'll get 11+ gallons to a boil.

 

[OldBunny]

I just bought the 1800W Burton. It comes with a refrigerator-type magnet. If the magnet sticks to your pot, you're good to go.

 

[myxologyst66]

First off, thanks to everyone for the responses. From what I've gathered the induction system seems to be more suited to small batch indoor brewing. Since I'm working with a bigger system I don't know if its gonna get my batches to temp efficiently and the need for a new brew kettle may put this project on the shelf. It seems that for the money it would be better to modify one of my existing kettles with a heating element. Thanks again for everyone's help!

 

[sandyabernethy]

Hi. I was researching older posts to learn about boiling with induction and I found yours. If you're still using the 3500W, I'd be curious to know about the size of the pot relative to the burner. I saw the Avantco 3500W at a reasonable $179. They spec a max pot size of 10 1/4". Have you had any trouble with bigger pots on your burner? What about the weight of 12 gallons plus pot?

( http://www.webstaurantstore.com/ava...r-208-240v-3500-watt/177IC3500 208*240.html )

 

[bmiller8]

Has anyone used two induction burners on the same outlet? I may purchase two max burton induction burners (1800 w) to use in my garage during cooler months, but didnt know if this would be too many amps.

 

[ChuckO]

Has anyone used two induction burners on the same outlet? I may purchase two max burton induction burners (1800 w) to use in my garage during cooler months, but didnt know if this would be too many amps.

1800 watts at 120 volts uses 15 amps. You would need two 15A circuits, or better still, two 20A circuits.

 

[dyqik]

Has anyone used two induction burners on the same outlet? I may purchase two max burton induction burners (1800 w) to use in my garage during cooler months, but didnt know if this would be too many amps.

That would be too much for a 20A 110 V circuit. Just add the powers together, if it's over 2200W, it's too much for a 20A circuit. (1650W for a 15A circuit).


Note that the power is turned down in these burners at low settings by turning the heat on and off. So they will still try to draw the full current/power some of the time, even on the lowest setting.

 

[bmiller8]

Thanks...think I found a dual burner I'll purchase. Appreciate your input

 

[Siberian]

Hi. I was researching older posts to learn about boiling with induction and I found yours. If you're still using the 3500W, I'd be curious to know about the size of the pot relative to the burner. I saw the Avantco 3500W at a reasonable $179. They spec a max pot size of 10 1/4". Have you had any trouble with bigger pots on your burner? What about the weight of 12 gallons plus pot?

( http://www.webstaurantstore.com/ava...r-208-240v-3500-watt/177IC3500 208*240.html )

I have the Avantco 3500w.

I use a 20g Megapot 1.2 on it (roughly 18" diameter) and I've filled it with 15 gallons of water and 47 pounds of grain. So that would be around 172 pounds in the pot, just sitting on the Avantco.

It still works fine and is no worse for wear.

 

[AnOldUR]

What about the weight of 12 gallons plus pot?

Here's almost 13 gallons in a 62qt Bayou pot on the Avantco 3500W. Never a problem.

 

[bmiller8]

So 5-6 gallons should be good on an 1800w? Planning this for winter brewing and doing smaller batches.

 

[IslandLizard]

Here's almost 13 gallons in a 62qt Bayou pot on the Avantco 3500W. Never a problem.

Wow, that's a nice jacket! Neoprene (diving suit material) I suppose? How thick is it?

I too use the Avantco IC3500 and simply love it. Haven't used anything larger than an 8 gallon kettle on it yet, but seeing this encourages me to try my 15 gallon one.

 

[AnOldUR]

Wow, that's a nice jacket! Neoprene (diving suit material) I suppose? How thick is it?

Yes, it is neoprene, about 9/32" thick. It's a Keg Koozy. Works well!

 

[humann_brewing]

I have the Avantco 3500w.

I use a 20g Megapot 1.2 on it (roughly 18" diameter) and I've filled it with 15 gallons of water and 47 pounds of grain. So that would be around 172 pounds in the pot, just sitting on the Avantco.

It still works fine and is no worse for wear.

That is the exact combo I would love to have if I want to BIAB no sparge 10g batches.

How does it work? I was leaning toward the tall boy just because of the price point but they don't make a 20g in that one.

 

[IslandLizard]

I have the Avantco 3500w.

I use a 20g Megapot 1.2 on it (roughly 18" diameter) and I've filled it with 15 gallons of water and 47 pounds of grain. So that would be around 172 pounds in the pot, just sitting on the Avantco.

It still works fine and is no worse for wear.

How does the 15 gallons boil for you in that pot?

I can't get a full rolling boil in my 15 gallon MoreBeer Heavy Duty Kettle with 13 gallons of wort, unless I put the lid on part way, and insulate the sides.

 

[helibrewer]

How does the 15 gallons boil for you in that pot?

I can't get a full rolling boil in my 15 gallon MoreBeer Heavy Duty Kettle with 13 gallons of wort, unless I put the lid on part way, and insulate the sides.

Used a lid like this on the UC Davis induction system:

 

[IslandLizard]

Used a lid like this on the UC Davis induction system:

Is that lid force vented during the boil, like a commercial brewery's copper?

 

[phyllobeddo]

What about a 240v burner? Unplug the dryer and hook this one up.

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/suf...QQGikRcshODBGY-f65O1o4amaPPuy1xCShRoCT5_w_wcB

 

[helibrewer]

Is that lid force vented during the boil, like a commercial brewery's copper?

Passive venting, works fine for volatiles.

 

[Minbari]

What about a 240v burner? Unplug the dryer and hook this one up.

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/suf...QQGikRcshODBGY-f65O1o4amaPPuy1xCShRoCT5_w_wcB

it is only 2kw. for a contact type burner that might be iffy for more than a couple gallons.

 

[Siberian]

I've gone to doing much the same thing as that UC Davis setup after seeing that photo in another thread. Except well, that cover turns out to be really pricey and I couldn't bring myself to buy one, plus I'm not sure I can find one to fit my kettle. So I made one out of a huge 18" stainless steel bowl.



I've made a Oktoberfest on this setup with a bunch of Pilsner malt and did a 90 minute boil. No cooked veg/creamed corn taste in the beer so I think my volatile boil off was solid. If anything was going to show DMS left in the wort, I'd think it would be a recipe that was over 50% pilsner malt. I'm still boiling off around 1 gallon of wort an hour, so plenty of steam is finding it's way out of the kettle to carry off anything nasty.

I can maintain a rolling boil with 2700 watts on the IC3500 with this on and no wrapping the kettle, if I leave the power maxed it will start to boil over even on 10 gallon batches. I also seem to reach a boil more quickly then even with the original flat cover installed. Give I have power to spare with this on I'm probably enlarge the size of my holes. This will also allow me to clean up my holes, they are pretty crap right now. I'm going to expand the holes with my new knock-out punch set which should make a cleaner cut and let me easily get it up to 4 holes that are 1-1/4" each.

Right now I have 4x probably around 3/4" diameter holes in the dome. I made a damper inspired by a weber BBQ kettle from scrap copper that lets me easily close the lid fully while bringing it up to a boil.

 

[humann_brewing]

I've gone to doing much the same thing as that UC Davis setup after seeing that photo in another thread. Except well, that cover turns out to be really pricey and I could bring myself to buy one, plus I'm not sure I can find one to fit my kettle. So I made one out of a huge 18" stainless steel bowl.

View attachment 228402

I've made a Oktoberfest on this setup with a bunch of Pilsner malt and did a 90 minute boil. No cooked veg/creamed corn taste in the beer so I think my volatile boil off was solid.

I can maintain a rolling boil with 2700 watts on the IC3500 with this on and no wrapping the kettle. Given this I'm probably for safety (and to clean up my holes they are pretty crap right now) going to expand the holes with my new knock-out punch set to give a bit more room for steam to escape.

Right now I have 4x probably around 3/4" diameter holes in the dome with a weber kettle inspired damper made from scrap copper that lets me close it fully while bringing it up to a boil.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Very nice, guess I need to search for a gigantic SS bowl

 

[Siberian]

In case anyone really wants it... the hood/dome earlier in this thread appears to be this or something very similar:

http://morebeer.com/products/copper-hood-50l-braumeister.html

At $439 though it costs more than my kettle!

 

[humann_brewing]

In case anyone really wants it... the hood/dome earlier in this thread appears to be this or something very similar:

http://morebeer.com/products/copper-hood-50l-braumeister.html

At $439 though it costs more than my kettle!

well that doesn't seem worth it, might as well go for one of those 3,000 induction burners too.

 

[CarbonTom]

I've gone to doing much the same thing as that UC Davis setup after seeing that photo in another thread. Except well, that cover turns out to be really pricey and I couldn't bring myself to buy one, plus I'm not sure I can find one to fit my kettle. So I made one out of a huge 18" stainless steel bowl.

View attachment 228402

I've made a Oktoberfest on this setup with a bunch of Pilsner malt and did a 90 minute boil. No cooked veg/creamed corn taste in the beer so I think my volatile boil off was solid. If anything was going to show DMS left in the wort, I'd think it would be a recipe that was over 50% pilsner malt. I'm still boiling off around 1 gallon of wort an hour, so plenty of steam is finding it's way out of the kettle to carry off anything nasty.

I can maintain a rolling boil with 2700 watts on the IC3500 with this on and no wrapping the kettle, if I leave the power maxed it will start to boil over even on 10 gallon batches. I also seem to reach a boil more quickly then even with the original flat cover installed. Give I have power to spare with this on I'm probably enlarge the size of my holes. This will also allow me to clean up my holes, they are pretty crap right now. I'm going to expand the holes with my new knock-out punch set which should make a cleaner cut and let me easily get it up to 4 holes that are 1-1/4" each.

Right now I have 4x probably around 3/4" diameter holes in the dome. I made a damper inspired by a weber BBQ kettle from scrap copper that lets me easily close the lid fully while bringing it up to a boil.

That lid looks sick. Do you have the induction top on a propane burner stand? Does the unit heat up at all? or could you put it on a stainless table, kind of like other peoples electric brewery set ups? Also, does your cooktop have a standard outlet cable?

 

[Siberian]

That lid looks sick. Do you have the induction top on a propane burner stand? Does the unit heat up at all? or could you put it on a stainless table, kind of like other peoples electric brewery set ups? Also, does your cooktop have a standard outlet cable?

Yes it's on an old propane burner stand. I had it around and it was a nice height for my setup.

The stand doesn't heat up at all and I don't see any reason I couldn't setup on a stainless table if I wanted.

It has an outlet cable that I was able to find a matching wall socket @ Home Depot for if that's what your asking.

 

[jrgtr42]

Earlier in the thread there someone mentioned efficiencies using induction, versus hot plate versus immersion heat stick.
For comparison sake, what would the efficiency of your average propane turkey fryer rig be? If anyone knows offhand.
Looking also above, people seem to be using insulation on the bigger kettles (10 - 15 gallons) with the Avantco IC3500 plate. Would I be correct in that a 5-gallon batch, starting with 6.5 - 7 gallons in an 8 gallon kettle should be easily handled by that "burner" with no lid or insulation?

 

[IslandLizard]

Earlier in the thread there someone mentioned efficiencies using induction, versus hot plate versus immersion heat stick.
For comparison sake, what would the efficiency of your average propane turkey fryer rig be? If anyone knows offhand.
Looking also above, people seem to be using insulation on the bigger kettles (10 - 15 gallons) with the Avantco IC3500 plate. Would I be correct in that a 5-gallon batch, starting with 6.5 - 7 gallons in an 8 gallon kettle should be easily handled by that "burner" with no lid or insulation?

Efficiency of propane burners varies a lot more than electric, and is a bit harder to calculate. It depends on the whole system, for example how much of the generated heat leaks away from the kettle, that's a large factor. People who shortened the distance between burner and kettle and added a good wind shield around their Bayou burners reported 100% or more gain in efficiency just by cutting the time it takes to get to a boil in half. That's huge!

Time how long it takes to bring 10-20 gallons to a boil on your system, and calculate the theoretical energy required to do that. Weight the tank before and after, it tells you how many pounds of propane you used and convert that to the total energy potential of that amount of propane. Divide the first by the second number and you've got your efficiency.

Because of increased heat loss at higher temps, it takes more energy to raise the kettle from 140 to 210 than from 70 to 140, for example. You could use that knowledge to calculate fractional efficiencies for different temp ranges, and learn where curbing heat loss brings you the largest gains.

I have an 8 gallon triple ply kettle and can boil 7 gallons of wort with no problem (and no insulation) on an IC3500. I do need a lid 2/3s on and several layers of bubble wrap when boiling 13 gallons in a 15 gallon kettle. Both are wide aspect kettles (MoreBeer).