Inadvertent boil during mash

[jeeppilot]

First time for this happening…I do EBIAB with a false bottom. On a particularly large grain bill, about 30 minutes into the mash and while recirculating, the bag and grain created a seal with the false bottom and kettle with my controlling temp probe stuck in the grain. Temp started dropping because the recirc wasn’t flowing over the probe, heater came on and next thing I know I have boiling wort coming up from the side of the bag, while my temp probe still says 145F.

My fermentation is now complete and I’m 15 points higher than my target FG. (OG 1.091, target FG 1.026). Did I caramelize a whole bunch of fermentable sugars doing this? Or did I miss something in my recipe software when calculating a pastry stout w/ 1 lb lactose and mash temp of 155F? (Pitched 2 packets US-05)

 

[mac_1103]

Did I caramelize a whole bunch of fermentable sugars doing this?

Maybe. Or maybe you denatured all of the enzymes before conversion was complete. Or maybe both.

 

[Broken Crow]

Why do you have the temp control probe in the grain? It has been my understanding that BIAB is no different than using a mash tun in that respect and the temp probe should be inline with the recirculation to avoid exactly that problem. A temp reading in the grain bed is 'organic information' so that you can make minor adjustments to your controller to account for heat losses.

 

[stamandster]

As mentioned, it sounds like may not have had a full starch conversion because the enzymes were denatured prematurely.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Full mash decoction? Maybe we are witnessing the birth of a new technique?

 

[fluketamer]

denatured .

i bet you still made beer tho

 

[mac_1103]

i bet you still made beer tho

Technically yes. But FG is higher than a lot of recipe's OG. This would be like brewing up 5.5 gallons of 1.040 wort and then adding a gallon of 80 proof vodka instead of fermenting it.

OP could try adding some amylase (alpha, not gluco). There have been some recent threads where members have had that work pretty well.

 

[jeeppilot]

As mentioned, it sounds like may not have had a full starch conversion because the enzymes were denatured prematurely.

If I had reached my OG target, is that possible if I didn’t have full conversion? Or does that have more to do with fermentables vs unfermentables?

I’ve seen many people do 30 minute mashes because the conversion can complete that quickly. I grind pretty finely, and being that the boil happened about 30 minutes in, I thought that it was possible conversion might have completed before it boiled.

Anyway, is there any “fix” for this? I do have to put it on fruit that will kick off a secondary fermentation but that won’t help as far as I understand.

 

[jeeppilot]

Technically yes. But FG is higher than a lot of recipe's OG. This would be like brewing up 5.5 gallons of 1.040 wort and then adding a gallon of 80 proof vodka instead of fermenting it.

OP could try adding some amylase (alpha, not gluco). There have been some recent threads where members have had that work pretty well.

May try this for sure. Thanks for a “fix” idea!

 

[mac_1103]

If I had reached my OG target, is that possible if I didn’t have full conversion? Or does that have more to do with fermentables vs unfermentables?

Short answer: yes and yes.

I’ve seen many people do 30 minute mashes because the conversion can complete that quickly. I grind pretty finely, and being that the boil happened about 30 minutes in, I thought that it was possible conversion might have completed before it boiled.

Conversion can happen in 30 minutes (or even less I suppose), but incomplete conversion seems like the best explanation of finishing with gravity still that high. This assumes that your fermentation really is finished of course. How long has it been and how many gravity readings have you taken?

Anyway, is there any “fix” for this? I do have to put it on fruit that will kick off a secondary fermentation but that won’t help as far as I understand.

See previous post.

 

[Bobby_M]

Plenty of useful stuff posted already so I'll try to add some value. Whether it's a big grain bill or not, be sure to use a good hot PBW soak on the bags after brew day and rinse really well with hot water. It's hard to see, but stuff adheres to the threads and reduces the open space of the bag. Also keep that recirc to a trickle so that it doesn't exceed the bag's max flow rate.

I recommend putting the probe in the liquid area below the false bottom and also split your pump flow to whirlpool that area below. Rock solid temps and no boiling under there.

Whenever a recipe calls for lactose in the boil, you can never go wrong by leaving it out and adding it at packaging if you feel the beer needs it. You make a simple syrup and add it to your bottling bucket or the keg. That's 1.006 of gravity you can add to the FG (if it's a pound in 5 gallons).

 

[Kickass]

That’s 78% attenuation, when you exclude the lactose, which is unfermentable. I wouldn’t expect a lower FG. I’m not saying you didn’t denature some of your enzymes, but I don’t think you’re as far of as you think. Maybe your software was unrealistic in calculating a 1.011 FG.

 

[mac_1103]

That’s 78% attenuation, when you exclude the lactose... Maybe your software was unrealistic in calculating a 1.011 FG.

I think you're reading it wrong. Target FG was 1.026 but he's stuck 15 points higher than that.

 

[Kickass]

I think you're reading it wrong.

Ah, I’m tracking now.

 

[jeeppilot]

I think you're reading it wrong. Target FG was 1.026 but he's stuck 15 points higher than that.

Yes, this.

 

[jeeppilot]

That’s 78% attenuation, when you exclude the lactose, which is unfermentable. I wouldn’t expect a lower FG. I’m not saying you didn’t denature some of your enzymes, but I don’t think you’re as far of as you think. Maybe your software was unrealistic in calculating a 1.011 FG.

Plenty of useful stuff posted already so I'll try to add some value. Whether it's a big grain bill or not, be sure to use a good hot PBW soak on the bags after brew day and rinse really well with hot water. It's hard to see, but stuff adheres to the threads and reduces the open space of the bag. Also keep that recirc to a trickle so that it doesn't exceed the bag's max flow rate.

I recommend putting the probe in the liquid area below the false bottom and also split your pump flow to whirlpool that area below. Rock solid temps and no boiling under there.

Whenever a recipe calls for lactose in the boil, you can never go wrong by leaving it out and adding it at packaging if you feel the beer needs it. You make a simple syrup and add it to your bottling bucket or the keg. That's 1.006 of gravity you can add to the FG (if it's a pound in 5 gallons).

I know my probe location isn’t great. Thats where it was when I purchased the kettle. However, it hasn’t been a big enough issue to warrant me doing anything with it yet and this was by far the biggest grain bill I’ve done yet on this system. But it’s probably time to move it, and I do need to be careful with the recirc flow, so thank you for that reminder.

 

[jeeppilot]

That’s 78% attenuation, when you exclude the lactose, which is unfermentable. I wouldn’t expect a lower FG. I’m not saying you didn’t denature some of your enzymes, but I don’t think you’re as far of as you think. Maybe your software was unrealistic in calculating a 1.011 FG.

I think I’m trying mostly to figure out why my brewing software calculated a 1.026 FG if that’s not realistic. And my current attenuation is at 54% so that’s definitely not complete. It’s been flatlined there for 3 days now.

 

[jeeppilot]

Short answer: yes and yes.

Conversion can happen in 30 minutes (or even less I suppose), but incomplete conversion seems like the best explanation of finishing with gravity still that high. This assumes that your fermentation really is finished of course. How long has it been and how many gravity readings have you taken?

See previous post.

It’s been flatlined at 1.040 for 3 days now. 54% attenuation.

 

[jeeppilot]

So final question. I have some alpha amalyse coming and I’m putting the beer on fruit next. Should I add the enzyme along with the fruit, so the secondary fermentation will hopefully take down the rest of the sugars after the enzymes act? How long does the enzyme need to do its thing?

 

[mac_1103]

my current attenuation is at 54% so that’s definitely not complete

You should exclude the lactose when calculating your attenuation since it is not fermentable. That's 7 or 8 gravity points, so you're actually around 47% AA - (91-7.5-40)/(91-7.5)=0.474.

Should I add the enzyme along with the fruit, so the secondary fermentation will hopefully take down the rest of the sugars after the enzymes act? How long does the enzyme need to do its thing?

Not sure it matters whether you add the enzyme first or at the same time as the fruit. Simple sugars from the fruit should ferment out anyway. Not sure how long the enzyme needs. Try searching the forums; like I said there have been a few threads recently.

 

[day_trippr]

Enzymes start working immediately (example: mash)...

 

[mac_1103]

Enzymes start working immediately (example: mash)...

Sure, but I thought the question was when they would finish working.

 

[day_trippr]

 

[Broken Crow]

...I thought the question had morphed into how to compensate for an improper hardware setup.
This is well-meant; I hope that as much effort as is being put into addressing the affliction will go into addressing the cause of the affliction, both to prevent it from inevitably happening again and to improve the temp-control profile with every subsequent brew.
What type of temp probe/sensor are you using? Can it be remounted to where it will be of use? Do you need a fitting like one of these: https://www.brewhardware.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=compression&Submit= ?

 

[AmarikinBrew]

You made Stroh's!

 

[jeeppilot]

...I thought the question had morphed into how to compensate for an improper hardware setup.
This is well-meant; I hope that as much effort as is being put into addressing the affliction will go into addressing the cause of the affliction, both to prevent it from inevitably happening again and to improve the temp-control profile with every subsequent brew.
What type of temp probe/sensor are you using? Can it be remounted to where it will be of use? Do you need a fitting like one of these: https://www.brewhardware.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=compression&Submit= ?

Sorry if I caused any confusion. My original post was kind of two parts—what did I do and how can I fix it (if it all). Consensus is I denatured the enzymes. Potential fix is adding alpha enzymes and restarting fermentation.

The cause, in my mind, has been understood from the beginning. My probe placement, along with running my recirc at too high a flow rate and the largest grain bill I’ve ever had in my kettle caused suction and a seal to form isolating the probe and giving the heater erroneous info. That caused the boil to occur during the mash.

While the probe location is not ideal, it hasn’t failed in this way yet because of having never maxed out my kettle capacity before. That said, it is probably time to relocate it.

...I thought the question had morphed into how to compensate for an improper hardware setup.
This is well-meant; I hope that as much effort as is being put into addressing the affliction will go into addressing the cause of the affliction, both to prevent it from inevitably happening again and to improve the temp-control profile with every subsequent brew.
What type of temp probe/sensor are you using? Can it be remounted to where it will be of use? Do you need a fitting like one of these: https://www.brewhardware.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=compression&Submit= ?

 

[jeeppilot]

Sure, but I thought the question was when they would finish working.

More how long do they take to start working. I’m trying to decide if I need to get the enzymes in first, wait for them to start working, then add the fruit, or just throw it all in together. Seems like it probably doesn’t matter as the enzymes will be active in the time it takes the fruit to ferment out. Then it’s just a matter of seeing if I end up closer to 26 instead of 40.

 

[jeeppilot]

Just an update…the enzyme worked wonders! I put in 1 tsp of it about 12 hrs before the fruit went in. Activity already had picked up before the fruit went in. Now, 5 days later, the FG has dropped from 1.040 to 1.027 (again target was 1.026) and the fruit has been run through as well. Activity has stopped so I’m letting it sit a few more days to clean up then I’ll take out the fruit and pop in the vanilla and cocoa nibs.

Thanks again for the advice everyone. Cheers!

 

[crazyjake19]

Full mash decoction? Maybe we are witnessing the birth of a new technique?

Nope, Keptinis has been around for a long time.