inactive bacteria

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elenchus

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I am doing three sour beers, one is a dark ale with brett brux, one is a light ale with brett lamb, and the other is a mixture of the two. I believe I made the mistake of pitching the bacteria when I racked to carboys, following two weeks of primary. I hadn't gotten any pellicle, so I tasted and got zero sour notes after about a month. I know I need to be patient and age them, but I was concerned I messed up, and I believe I did. I tried restarting by boiling some light malt extract and pitching it in all three carboys. The mixture is showing quick pellicle formation within days, the brett lamb is showing a little, and the brett brux is showing nothing. Any thoughts on what I can do to jumpstart the brux, and maybe the lamb a little more? I don't want to just keep adding malt which should affect the flavor. I figure re-pitching the bacteria wouldn't help much. I thought about adding some malto-dextrin, but wanted an experienced opinion.
 
Brett is a yeast, not bacteria, and won't create much in the way of acidity apart from a bit of acetic acid in the presence of oxygen. Are there some major details you are leaving out?
 
I believe when I brewed my first lambic, I misunderstood exactly what I was pitching and was under the impression the brett was a bacteria, not a yeast. I am starting to understand where I've gone wrong. I just need to do some more research now that I understand my mistake.
 
In my experience, with Brettanomyces beers, the B. lambicus will give you some nice cherry notes that will set the beer apart from a Sacch beer. The B. brux was unremarkable.

I love the Wyeast Roeselare blend for souring. At this point, if you really want to sour it, you could split a pouch of Lacto between the carboys. It really should sour in 2 months. Next time, try that Wyeast blend - it has both the yeast and the bacteria.
 
I am doing three sour beers, one is a dark ale with brett brux, one is a light ale with brett lamb, and the other is a mixture of the two. I believe I made the mistake of pitching the bacteria when I racked to carboys, following two weeks of primary. I hadn't gotten any pellicle, so I tasted and got zero sour notes after about a month. I know I need to be patient and age them, but I was concerned I messed up, and I believe I did. I tried restarting by boiling some light malt extract and pitching it in all three carboys. The mixture is showing quick pellicle formation within days, the brett lamb is showing a little, and the brett brux is showing nothing. Any thoughts on what I can do to jumpstart the brux, and maybe the lamb a little more? I don't want to just keep adding malt which should affect the flavor. I figure re-pitching the bacteria wouldn't help much. I thought about adding some malto-dextrin, but wanted an experienced opinion.

I wouldn't expect anything in the space of a month. You pitched a small amount of brett into an alcohol environment with no O2. You did it right by the way. However it is going to take a long time for the brett population to build. Come back and see what it is like in a year. The brett wil probaly continue to devlop the beer for a couple of years.

At this point, if you really want to sour it, you could split a pouch of Lacto between the carboys. It really should sour in 2 months. Next time, try that Wyeast blend - it has both the yeast and the bacteria.

The beers have alcohol and hops. Do you really think he will have any succes with lacto.
 
Let these beers age. If you have provided a bit more food for the yeast your brett will get to work. Just give it some time 3-4 months. Taste along the way, as long as your gravity isn't continuing to drop you can bottle whenever you like the flavor profile.

Another option if you are looking to sour these up is to brew a batch of sour beer (with lacto pedio and brett) then make blends of this new sour beer and the originals.

Good luck and keep us updated!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Home Brew mobile app
 
I pitched some lacto and pedio into all three carboys and I'm going to let it go for another month or two and give them a taste to see where they stand, but I won't bottle them until at least June since I'm restarting the aging clock after pitching the bacteria. I've been making extensive notes for each step I take in this hodgepodge of an attempt at brewing sour beer, including all of your suggestions, which I greatly appreciate! :mug:

What I found odd was the lambic I brewed prior to these was a smashing success, but apparently I just got lucky. I also went online and bought a book on sour beers, so I will read that before I embark on my next attempt.
 
I pitched some lacto and pedio into all three carboys and I'm going to let it go for another month or two and give them a taste to see where they stand, but I won't bottle them until at least June since I'm restarting the aging clock after pitching the bacteria. I've been making extensive notes for each step I take in this hodgepodge of an attempt at brewing sour beer, including all of your suggestions, which I greatly appreciate! :mug:

What I found odd was the lambic I brewed prior to these was a smashing success, but apparently I just got lucky. I also went online and bought a book on sour beers, so I will read that before I embark on my next attempt.

Reports on staggered pitching schedules (sacc, then brett, then LAB) are that they can be successful in a barrel but do not typically result in the desired sourness in carboys. Possible reasons for this are micro oxidation, the bugs having a "home" in the wood, adaptation of strains already within the barrel, etc. Typical time frame for souring is 1-3 years at cellar-ish temps, unless you're doing it Jolly Pumpkin style and going with short barrel contact time, allowing the acidity to further develop in the bottle (risk of bottle bombs for the inexperienced). Of course things will progress faster the warmer it is, but this is not necessarily for the better.
 
I read that adding some oak cubes is a good idea to simulate the barrel environment. It warned to eliminate as much of the oak flavor as possible prior to pitching to avoid it creeping into the beer, which is something I have to investigate more. I have some oak cubes on hand and plan on trying it out in at least one of the carboys.
 
doesn't it depend on the strain of lacto? aren't certain ones more tolerant of hops and alcohol than others?

I think the hops would probably be more of a problem. However, he may find a strain that could tolerate both. If he does, it will take a very long time to have any effect; Passedpawn suggested he could get good results in a couple of months, which I think is extremely unlikely even with a tolerant strain.
 
I think the hops would probably be more of a problem. However, he may find a strain that could tolerate both. If he does, it will take a very long time to have any effect; Passedpawn suggested he could get good results in a couple of months, which I think is extremely unlikely even with a tolerant strain.

My sour beers got sour between 2 and 3 months. That was with lacto added in the beginning though, to unfermented wort. I wasn't really thinking when I said that... I'd like to retract it :)

I agree with what you said: with the presence of alcohol and low pH, the bacteria might do nothing at all. I haven't had that experience, but it's what I remember reading when I was doing sours.
 
elenchus said:
I read that adding some oak cubes is a good idea to simulate the barrel environment. It warned to eliminate as much of the oak flavor as possible prior to pitching to avoid it creeping into the beer, which is something I have to investigate more. I have some oak cubes on hand and plan on trying it out in at least one of the carboys.

You can imagine the things this will, and will not do to simulate the barrel environment. I like to boil, then soak in alcohol before use.
 
passedpawn said:
My sour beers got sour between 2 and 3 months. That was with lacto added in the beginning though, to unfermented wort.

So you're talking more the Berliner Weisse method, developing acidity with lacto prior to pitching yeast? Typically this takes ~48 hrs @ 100-105F, and is really the opposite of the situation here. I may be misunderstanding.
 
So you're talking more the Berliner Weisse method, developing acidity with lacto prior to pitching yeast? Typically this takes ~48 hrs @ 100-105F, and is really the opposite of the situation here. I may be misunderstanding.

No. With Flanders Red and Brown, I used a blend (Roeselare), which contained the lacto and pedio along with the sacch and brett. That beer got sour between 2 and 3 months. In fact, with regards to flavor, it was at its best at around 4 or 5 months. I fermented for nearly a year and it got puckeringly sour! I've still got a lot of the Flanders Red in bottles if anyone is in the area.

With respect to my Berlinerweisse, I added lacto about 2 days before the sacch (I also bottled with lacto). IIRC, the beer was visibly fermenting when I added the sacch.
 
passedpawn said:
No. With Flanders Red and Brown, I used a blend (Roeselare), which contained the lacto and pedio along with the sacch and brett. That beer got sour between 2 and 3 months. In fact, with regards to flavor, it was at its best at around 4 or 5 months. I fermented for nearly a year and it got puckeringly sour! I've still got a lot of the Flanders Red in bottles if anyone is in the area.

With respect to my Berlinerweisse, I added lacto about 2 days before the sacch (I also bottled with lacto). IIRC, the beer was visibly fermenting when I added the sacch.

2-3 month with Roeselare, eh? That seems unusually fast. I do like my sour beers very acidic though. If it's not a matter of temp, maybe it's one of taste or some other form of voodoo...

Ok, so back to the OP, staggered pitching in carboys. The only other thing I can think of that may help would be racking to a 5 gal barrel. I'm usually opposed to these due to high surface to volume ratio and concerns of excessive oxygen exposure and acetic acid production, but situation being what it is, this is about the only thing I can think of that may help develop acidity.

Here's a better idea: brew more sour beers, and when you taste the batch that is so sour it strips the enamel from your teeth, you will be glad you have a more lightly acidic batch to blend with.
 
2-3 month with Roeselare, eh? That seems unusually fast. I do like my sour beers very acidic though. If it's not a matter of temp, maybe it's one of taste or some other form of voodoo...

Ok, so back to the OP, staggered pitching in carboys. The only other thing I can think of that may help would be racking to a 5 gal barrel. I'm usually opposed to these due to high surface to volume ratio and concerns of excessive oxygen exposure and acetic acid production, but situation being what it is, this is about the only thing I can think of that may help develop acidity.

Here's a better idea: brew more sour beers, and when you taste the batch that is so sour it strips the enamel from your teeth, you will be glad you have a more lightly acidic batch to blend with.

My notes from my first two Flanders batches:

Flanders Red, Batch #1
Brewing Classic Styles recipe, on Roeselare. Fermented @ 75F.
  • 2 wks: Slight sour
  • 2 mo: Nicely sour, slight tart
  • 2.5 mo: medium sour;
  • 4 mo: added toasted oak chips, 2# dried currants
  • 4.5 mo: noticebly tart, drier than before, acidic.
  • 6 mo: added 1# cherries
  • 6.5 mo: bottled.
If you want sour and funk, it has it in spades. I have some Russian River Consecration to compare it to and mine is a little more sour. :eek:

There was a little too much acetic acid in there from too much fiddling (sampling!) during the 6 months. I let too much O2 in there.

It's been in the bottles for about 5 months. They are perfectly carbonated, probably about 2 volumes CO2. They foam perfectly, but won't hold a head for the pH I guess.

Flanders Red, Batch #2
  • Pitched onto the yeast/currant/oak/cherries cake of the previous batch.
  • Sat undisturbed for 4 months.
  • After 4 mo, transfered to secondary.
Tastes perfect right now, does not have that acetic acid of the last one. I'm going to let it go for at least another 6 months.​
 
At the risk of hijacking the gentleman's thread, I do want to follow this a bit further down the rabbit hole. We talking 75F ambient, or fermentation temp?

Jealous of your Consecration. It's my favorite American sour and we don't get Russian River here in MI.
 
doesn't it depend on the strain of lacto? aren't certain ones more tolerant of hops and alcohol than others?
Lacto is fairly alcohol tolerant; most strains do fine upto 8-9%/vol. The heterofermentive ones (e.g. the ones that make both lactic acid and ethanol) wont ferment on their own past 2-3%, but both hetero and homofermentative lacto's maintain some souring capacity in beers with higher alcohol contents. The major thing that limits their activity is not alcohol, but rather the availability of fermentable carbohydrates. As you may expect, this can be limiting in beers where yeast have consumed most of the sugars. Many strains of lacto can eat cellbiose, which is why you can get on-going souring in barrel-aged beers. Using oak cubes may provide a similar capacity in the home brewery, but I've not tried this myself and therefore cannot comment on how well it works. As a rule, lacto added to a fermented beer in glass or plastic will not do well due to the lack of suitable carbohydrates.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01583633

As for hops, susceptibility is highly strain dependent. Most of the commercial ones are highly sensitive to hops. I (and many others) have isolated hop-resistant lacto strains. I'm still assessing the ones I've found (the first two produced some pretty unpleasant off-flavours; I've got 8 more to test), but others have reported success finding hop-resistant lacto's that produce nice acidification of beer without other undesired off-flavours. I believe the mad fermentationist has had success in this regard.

Bryan
 
At the risk of hijacking the gentleman's thread, I do want to follow this a bit further down the rabbit hole. We talking 75F ambient, or fermentation temp?

Jealous of your Consecration. It's my favorite American sour and we don't get Russian River here in MI.

Room temp, which was 75F. I have a fermentation fridge, but I didn't bother with any of my sours.

I bought a case of Consecration in Philly. I've drank it in person in Santa Rosa several times. Love it. I still have some; might chill a bottle for this wkend :)
 
passedpawn said:
Room temp, which was 75F. I have a fermentation fridge, but I didn't bother with any of my sours.

I bought a case of Consecration in Philly. I've drank it in person in Santa Rosa several times. Love it. I still have some; might chill a bottle for this wkend :)

Ok, so we're talking 80-something. I could see that favoring lacto and quick development of acidity.
 
Ok, so we're talking 80-something. I could see that favoring lacto and quick development of acidity.

Yea, maybe. These sour blends are not as active as your standard chico strain ale yeast. It might have been +5F, but I doubt it. Plus, I don't make starters for the sour beers, so the cell count was pretty low.
 
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