- May 12, 2008
- Reaction score
- San Diego
As I posted above, the EPA report shows at most 2.6ppb of dibutyltin leaching from CPVC pipe, more than 10-fold below the the immunotoxic effects you describe above. Furthermore, after a few days of water running through CPVC, you have 100-fold less DBT (roughly).For all those looking for proof, here are two papers similar to the work I'm doing, but on PVC. The data is a bit lower on CPVC, but again I can't release numbers.:
I'd like to quote on toxicity:
"Speciﬁcally, dibutyltin (DBT) has been shown to cause signiﬁcant neurotoxicity in immature brain cell cultures at 30 ppb, to cause 100% suppression of natural killer lymphocytes function at approximately 3 ppm and 30% suppression at 150 ppb, and to be a potent teratogen if exposure is during the period of organogenesis"
Is this good enough? (Seriously, not sarcasm.)
By the way, Itellectual Property (IP) is just that, property. Giving it away is not just a fireable offense, it comes with severe litigation and possible jail-time (up to 10 years I believe). It's not a whistleblower issue, because this info (that organotin is extractable from CPVC) is well know in the scientific community. What I can't release is how to get the material cleaner or the data related to washing of the material, efficiency, etc. It crosses many polymers so is applicable to things like BPA, MDA, Zn, Cu and other materials known to be toxic.
Let me know if these do not satisfy your quest for indisputable proof.
How did you read that so quickly? I guess I'm a slow reader. I'll look over it (it's very dense) and get back to you. One thing I would bring up is that it's from 1982, almost 30 years old. Just as a comparison, any internal reports at my place of work more than 15 years old are considered obsolete due to changing conditions, materials, technique and analytical equipment.The method used by the EPA to measure organotin leaching was to put together a 8.9 meter rectangular loop, pump water through it for 22 days at constant temp, then pull samples of extractant water to measure organotin leaching into the water sample.
For conditions as close as mash conditions as you can get (i.e. pH=5 extractant water at 72C (162F), CVPC leaching of dibutyltin dichloride came in on at 2.6ppb on day 1 then only 1 to 0.03ppb per 24 hours from days 2-22.
Note that this is dibutyltin dichloride, whereas downpantera was referring to the Trimethyltin species. Well, those levels are even lower for this test (starting at 0.3ppb for the first 24 hours, and becoming undetectable shortly after).
Maybe I'm missing something, but the numbers from the EPA and what little information downpantera provided do not line up at all.
I am the last person that would engage in fear mongering. I was trying to bring to this forum's attention that there could be a health risk to using CPVC in a mash tun. Then I get jumped on, and after about five snide responses, I posted that I would unsubscribe from this thread and you guys could make your decisions, and that's going to be my position going forward.So as long as your company can make cash on it they will say something is more dangerous than what everyone has been made to believe? Yeah this doesn't sound like bull**** fear mongering.
This thread is like that thread a few months back about Igloo coolers causing cancer where the OP refused to tell us how he came to that conclusion.
The initial post had my interest (I don't use CPVC) and then lost it when he started running in circles and hiding. Thank you ignore.
No reason to get all butt-hurt about this; thus is the nature of discussion on the interwebs....I am the last person that would engage in fear mongering. I was trying to bring to this forum's attention that there could be a health risk to using CPVC in a mash tun. Then I get jumped on, and after about five snide responses, I posted that I would unsubscribe from this thread and you guys could make your decisions, and that's going to be my position going forward.
I am not as knowledgeable as my source, but I have learned when to trust an authority. I have also learned when to withdraw from arguments when they devolve into peeing contests. Anybody who wants to investigate or research this can do so. Anybody who wants to take the industry at their word can do so. I know better now than to try to help some of you. For those that offered a reasonable reply, I appreciate that. Best of luck!
Sorry, I don't know anything about PEX. That is not my area of work. Sorry!What about the PEX Pipe used in construction for potable water. My house is full of it. Used for hot and cold supply. I have young grand children at my home? Is PEX pipe dangerous?
I use copper and stainless steel and glass for brewing!
I am just a computer nerd and all this chemistry makes my head spin, but is all the plastic PEX pipe in my house dangerous for my grand kids? .... that's what I need to know.
OH its PEX not PET
Sorry, I was referring to your data regarding organotin leaching and not its health effects. I think we all agree that organotins aren't good for you and I do realize that is not the proprietary information you have.Broadbill:
A) I never said we had data suggesting that organotins are bad for you and wasn't willing to share that. You misread me. There is tons of literature on how bad they are and why they are toxic. As clear as I can put it, I have data on the extraction of organotin from CPVC and PVC that I cannot share. I cannot say how much is leached out.
I don't have a dog in this fight as I don't use CPVC. I was pointing out that based on how you guys presented your argument, you were going to get slammed. As you know, Argument by authority doesn't work in science and it doesn't really work on an anonymous internet forum. I don't know if you are an expert in polymer chemistry or some guy posting from his Mom's couch with Doritos crumbs on his T-shirt.B) That is an illogical conclusion. There is no evidence to support that in any way. That is the "comfort factor" that many lazy people rely upon to continue on doing what they are doing because they can dismiss anything they don't like.
That's good information, but can such a difference in extraction efficiency lead to a 100-fold increase in measurable organotin leaching? This is where the you'd have to be to in order to make the EPA numbers in the toxic range (and where you are proposing they really are, based upon your comments).I am still reading the article. I had a lot of work yesterday, had to hit the gym, cook dinner and write RTP reports for the BJCP and so I could not get to it. I have not read the article before since it is irrelevant being dated from 1982. Remember I said that we consider anything older than 15 years to be obsolete. To believe that the scientific community hasn't improved in the past 30 years is at best naive.
So far I can say that since 1982 they do now have organotin standards, back then they did not "There is a general lack of certified organotin reference compounds." (page 3). Also, diethyl ether is a terrible solvent for organotin compounds. That is what they use to extract the organotin compounds, so I can easily see extraction efficiencies being an issue. Their general method of analysis is very weak. The GC method does not seem to use an internal standard and they really ought to do an aqueous phase separation rather than an organic one.
That's all I've go so far.
downpantera: Is there a certain point at which cpvc will stop leaching organotins?