Important information about CPVC

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downpantera

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For all those looking for proof, here are two papers similar to the work I'm doing, but on PVC. The data is a bit lower on CPVC, but again I can't release numbers.:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0021967397002641#secx15
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/aoc.246/pdf

I'd like to quote on toxicity:
"Specifically, dibutyltin (DBT) has been shown to cause significant neurotoxicity in immature brain cell cultures at 30 ppb, to cause 100% suppression of natural killer lymphocytes function at approximately 3 ppm and 30% suppression at 150 ppb, and to be a potent teratogen if exposure is during the period of organogenesis"

Is this good enough? (Seriously, not sarcasm.)

By the way, Itellectual Property (IP) is just that, property. Giving it away is not just a fireable offense, it comes with severe litigation and possible jail-time (up to 10 years I believe). It's not a whistleblower issue, because this info (that organotin is extractable from CPVC) is well know in the scientific community. What I can't release is how to get the material cleaner or the data related to washing of the material, efficiency, etc. It crosses many polymers so is applicable to things like BPA, MDA, Zn, Cu and other materials known to be toxic.

Let me know if these do not satisfy your quest for indisputable proof.
 

broadbill

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For anybody interested, I quickly looked at the EPA report on organotin leaching from PVC and CPVC pipes.

EPA Link

The method used by the EPA to measure organotin leaching was to put together a 8.9 meter rectangular loop, pump water through it for 22 days at constant temp, then pull samples of extractant water to measure organotin leaching into the water sample.

For conditions as close as mash conditions as you can get (i.e. pH=5 extractant water at 72C (162F), CVPC leaching of dibutyltin dichloride came in on at 2.6ppb on day 1 then only 1 to 0.03ppb per 24 hours from days 2-22.

Note that this is dibutyltin dichloride, whereas downpantera was referring to the Trimethyltin species. Well, those levels are even lower for this test (starting at 0.3ppb for the first 24 hours, and becoming undetectable shortly after).

Maybe I'm missing something, but the numbers from the EPA and what little information downpantera provided do not line up at all.
 

BrewerinBR

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What about the PEX Pipe used in construction for potable water. My house is full of it. Used for hot and cold supply. I have young grand children at my home? Is PEX pipe dangerous?

I use copper and stainless steel and glass for brewing!

I am just a computer nerd and all this chemistry makes my head spin, but is all the plastic PEX pipe in my house dangerous for my grand kids? .... that's what I need to know.

OH its PEX not PET
 

broadbill

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For all those looking for proof, here are two papers similar to the work I'm doing, but on PVC. The data is a bit lower on CPVC, but again I can't release numbers.:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0021967397002641#secx15
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/aoc.246/pdf

I'd like to quote on toxicity:
"Specifically, dibutyltin (DBT) has been shown to cause significant neurotoxicity in immature brain cell cultures at 30 ppb, to cause 100% suppression of natural killer lymphocytes function at approximately 3 ppm and 30% suppression at 150 ppb, and to be a potent teratogen if exposure is during the period of organogenesis"

Is this good enough? (Seriously, not sarcasm.)

By the way, Itellectual Property (IP) is just that, property. Giving it away is not just a fireable offense, it comes with severe litigation and possible jail-time (up to 10 years I believe). It's not a whistleblower issue, because this info (that organotin is extractable from CPVC) is well know in the scientific community. What I can't release is how to get the material cleaner or the data related to washing of the material, efficiency, etc. It crosses many polymers so is applicable to things like BPA, MDA, Zn, Cu and other materials known to be toxic.

Let me know if these do not satisfy your quest for indisputable proof.
As I posted above, the EPA report shows at most 2.6ppb of dibutyltin leaching from CPVC pipe, more than 10-fold below the the immunotoxic effects you describe above. Furthermore, after a few days of water running through CPVC, you have 100-fold less DBT (roughly).
 

downpantera

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The method used by the EPA to measure organotin leaching was to put together a 8.9 meter rectangular loop, pump water through it for 22 days at constant temp, then pull samples of extractant water to measure organotin leaching into the water sample.

For conditions as close as mash conditions as you can get (i.e. pH=5 extractant water at 72C (162F), CVPC leaching of dibutyltin dichloride came in on at 2.6ppb on day 1 then only 1 to 0.03ppb per 24 hours from days 2-22.

Note that this is dibutyltin dichloride, whereas downpantera was referring to the Trimethyltin species. Well, those levels are even lower for this test (starting at 0.3ppb for the first 24 hours, and becoming undetectable shortly after).

Maybe I'm missing something, but the numbers from the EPA and what little information downpantera provided do not line up at all.
How did you read that so quickly? I guess I'm a slow reader. I'll look over it (it's very dense) and get back to you. One thing I would bring up is that it's from 1982, almost 30 years old. Just as a comparison, any internal reports at my place of work more than 15 years old are considered obsolete due to changing conditions, materials, technique and analytical equipment.
 
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Starderup

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So as long as your company can make cash on it they will say something is more dangerous than what everyone has been made to believe? Yeah this doesn't sound like bull**** fear mongering.

This thread is like that thread a few months back about Igloo coolers causing cancer where the OP refused to tell us how he came to that conclusion.

The initial post had my interest (I don't use CPVC) and then lost it when he started running in circles and hiding. Thank you ignore.
I am the last person that would engage in fear mongering. I was trying to bring to this forum's attention that there could be a health risk to using CPVC in a mash tun. Then I get jumped on, and after about five snide responses, I posted that I would unsubscribe from this thread and you guys could make your decisions, and that's going to be my position going forward.
I am not as knowledgeable as my source, but I have learned when to trust an authority. I have also learned when to withdraw from arguments when they devolve into peeing contests. Anybody who wants to investigate or research this can do so. Anybody who wants to take the industry at their word can do so. I know better now than to try to help some of you. For those that offered a reasonable reply, I appreciate that. Best of luck!
 
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Starderup

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ROFLMAO, the Flat earth society has struck again.
Seriously, sticking your head in the sand is more like the Flat Earth Society than someone bringing up a potential area of concern. So, I guess we got a brewpot calling the brewkettle black here.:off:
 

wildwest450

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What about the PEX Pipe used in construction for potable water. My house is full of it. Used for hot and cold supply. I have young grand children at my home? Is PEX pipe dangerous?
I suggest a tinfoil hat while drinking tap water.


_
 

broadbill

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I am the last person that would engage in fear mongering. I was trying to bring to this forum's attention that there could be a health risk to using CPVC in a mash tun. Then I get jumped on, and after about five snide responses, I posted that I would unsubscribe from this thread and you guys could make your decisions, and that's going to be my position going forward.
I am not as knowledgeable as my source, but I have learned when to trust an authority. I have also learned when to withdraw from arguments when they devolve into peeing contests. Anybody who wants to investigate or research this can do so. Anybody who wants to take the industry at their word can do so. I know better now than to try to help some of you. For those that offered a reasonable reply, I appreciate that. Best of luck!
No reason to get all butt-hurt about this; thus is the nature of discussion on the interwebs....

Here is why people got a little frisky with you....you posted, said CPVC was bad because your buddy told you so. Your buddy then posted, also said that CPVC was bad for you but his evidence was proprietary and he couldn't talk about it. The conclusion everyone made from this was either: a) the company had data saying that CPVC was really bad for you but has decided not to share this information with anyone...or b) This information is non-relevant/mis-stated/not-applicable, etc. (or as SwampassJ put it "fear-mongering BullSh*t). Either way, this was not going to end well for you two.

I also posted an analysis of the 1982 EPA to which downpantera promised to read and get back to me.

First, I'm surprised that he hasn't read it already--isn't he the expert here?

Second, he hasn't posted since then...which tells me that he may have been mistaken on this information. Again, I'm not an expert so I'm more than willing to have an expert tell me where my analysis on organotin leaching from CPVC is wrong....

I guess we'll let this discussion fade off into obscurity, although I'm sure it will come up again (as these topics tend to do).
 

downpantera

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What about the PEX Pipe used in construction for potable water. My house is full of it. Used for hot and cold supply. I have young grand children at my home? Is PEX pipe dangerous?

I use copper and stainless steel and glass for brewing!

I am just a computer nerd and all this chemistry makes my head spin, but is all the plastic PEX pipe in my house dangerous for my grand kids? .... that's what I need to know.

OH its PEX not PET
Sorry, I don't know anything about PEX. That is not my area of work. Sorry!
 

downpantera

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Broadbill:

A) I never said we had data suggesting that organotins are bad for you and wasn't willing to share that. You misread me. There is tons of literature on how bad they are and why they are toxic. As clear as I can put it, I have data on the extraction of organotin from CPVC and PVC that I cannot share. I cannot say how much is leached out.

B) That is an illogical conclusion. There is no evidence to support that in any way. That is the "comfort factor" that many lazy people rely upon to continue on doing what they are doing because they can dismiss anything they don't like.

I am still reading the article. I had a lot of work yesterday, had to hit the gym, cook dinner and write RTP reports for the BJCP and so I could not get to it. I have not read the article before since it is irrelevant being dated from 1982. Remember I said that we consider anything older than 15 years to be obsolete. To believe that the scientific community hasn't improved in the past 30 years is at best naive.

So far I can say that since 1982 they do now have organotin standards, back then they did not "There is a general lack of certified organotin reference compounds." (page 3). Also, diethyl ether is a terrible solvent for organotin compounds. That is what they use to extract the organotin compounds, so I can easily see extraction efficiencies being an issue. Their general method of analysis is very weak. The GC method does not seem to use an internal standard and they really ought to do an aqueous phase separation rather than an organic one.



That's all I've go so far.
 

Brewticus

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I'm not a plumber or a chemist either... however, I am an Architect. One who designs research laboratories.

You need to step back and understand that all products are not created equally. Not all PVC or CPVC or stainless steel for that matter is exactly the same. One way of vetting the material choice for your system is to make sure that the piping is NSF/ANSI-61 Certified (and marked with the NSF61 certification stamp). What is that you ask?

NSF/ANSI Standard 61 - Drinking Water System Components was published in 1988 to establish minimum requirements for the control of potential adverse human health effects from products that contact drinking water.

NSF/ANSI Standard 61 includes criteria for testing and evaluating products to ensure they do not leach contaminants into the water that would be a health concern. These contaminants include those regulated by the United States Environmental Protection Agency (USEPA) and Health Canada, as well as any other non-regulated compounds that may be of concern.

There have been a number of position papers written about this issue here is one from the EPA:

http://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/20016SY7.TXT?ZyActionD=ZyDocument&Client=EPA&Index=1981+Thru+1985&Docs=&Query=600S181062%20or%20CPVC%20or%20leaching&Time=&EndTime=&SearchMethod=1&TocRestrict=n&Toc=&TocEntry=&QField=pubnumber%5E%22600S181062%22&QFieldYear=&QFieldMonth=&QFieldDay=&UseQField=pubnumber&IntQFieldOp=1&ExtQFieldOp=1&XmlQuery=&File=D%3A%5Czyfiles%5CIndex%20Data%5C81thru85%5CTxt%5C00000013%5C20016SY7.txt&User=ANONYMOUS&Password=anonymous&SortMethod=h%7C-&MaximumDocuments=10&FuzzyDegree=0&ImageQuality=r75g8/r75g8/x150y150g16/i425&Display=p%7Cf&DefSeekPage=x&SearchBack=ZyActionL&Back=ZyActionS&BackDesc=Results%20page&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=1&SeekPage=x&ZyPURL

Many states have limited the use of PVC and CPVC for drinking water use by the building and or plumbing codes (Mass and California for example).

Make up your own mind, but it appears there is sufficient research / evidence to proceed with caution.

Now go forth and make good beer!
 

Brewticus

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I thought I had read to the end of the thread... you had all already hit the information I intended to share...
 

broadbill

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Broadbill:

A) I never said we had data suggesting that organotins are bad for you and wasn't willing to share that. You misread me. There is tons of literature on how bad they are and why they are toxic. As clear as I can put it, I have data on the extraction of organotin from CPVC and PVC that I cannot share. I cannot say how much is leached out.
Sorry, I was referring to your data regarding organotin leaching and not its health effects. I think we all agree that organotins aren't good for you and I do realize that is not the proprietary information you have.

B) That is an illogical conclusion. There is no evidence to support that in any way. That is the "comfort factor" that many lazy people rely upon to continue on doing what they are doing because they can dismiss anything they don't like.
I don't have a dog in this fight as I don't use CPVC. I was pointing out that based on how you guys presented your argument, you were going to get slammed. As you know, Argument by authority doesn't work in science and it doesn't really work on an anonymous internet forum. I don't know if you are an expert in polymer chemistry or some guy posting from his Mom's couch with Doritos crumbs on his T-shirt:D.

I'm all for seeing any data you can find and/or reveal on organotin leaching, but I don't see any problems with the data I looked at (EPA's 1982 report). For example, on what evidence did Europe based their rigid standards upon? I have trouble believing that your company is the only place out there that has looked at organotin leaching from CPVC!

I am still reading the article. I had a lot of work yesterday, had to hit the gym, cook dinner and write RTP reports for the BJCP and so I could not get to it. I have not read the article before since it is irrelevant being dated from 1982. Remember I said that we consider anything older than 15 years to be obsolete. To believe that the scientific community hasn't improved in the past 30 years is at best naive.

So far I can say that since 1982 they do now have organotin standards, back then they did not "There is a general lack of certified organotin reference compounds." (page 3). Also, diethyl ether is a terrible solvent for organotin compounds. That is what they use to extract the organotin compounds, so I can easily see extraction efficiencies being an issue. Their general method of analysis is very weak. The GC method does not seem to use an internal standard and they really ought to do an aqueous phase separation rather than an organic one.



That's all I've go so far.
That's good information, but can such a difference in extraction efficiency lead to a 100-fold increase in measurable organotin leaching? This is where the you'd have to be to in order to make the EPA numbers in the toxic range (and where you are proposing they really are, based upon your comments).

Thanks!
 

downpantera

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SO I've read the whole paper a few times, and the results it reports seems to be only that of the loop experiment, where the only CPVC in contact with the extractant is the surface. Some of the other experiments they talked about but did not report the results like the fragmented pipe would be much more telling, since in mashing you would have drilled holes in the pipe increasing surface area but more importantly exposing fresh, uncured CPVC. The fragment test would show this, but they left the results out on that experiment. I don't know why, either.

I still have issues with their analytical method and stationary phase they use as well as the use of atomic absorption in some tests. The lack of an adsorbant also is concerning. Why these are important is because if you use the wrong column and the wrong eluent you'll leave material on the column and it won't register in testing. I know people who have worked years on this, and so I'm not surprised that in 1982 they did not use the right materials or testing apparati.

But who am I kidding? I know that no matter how much I pick apart that paper it says what people want to hear, so they'll believe it. I can speak from experience that you can extract much more organotin from CPVC with hot water than what that paper reports. If you choose to ignore that or believe that it won't harm you, then carry on. If you think that is not something you want to introduce to your beer, then change your system. That's all I can say.
 

HHP

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downpantera: Is there a certain point at which cpvc will stop leaching organotins?
 

rollinred

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This crappy poop drives me nuts.

Same F-in thing as the lead solder in your water lines. Sure, you get some toxicity off the surface of the material but you can NOT extract from the internal structure of the compound.

If you could extract from the internal structure then the material would degrade rapidly.


I believe the original poster and his buddy are right when saying that these chemicals are toxic. It would really be ignorant to say otherwise. But toxicity is more about chronic exposure in these cases.

You can not have chronic exposure to a limited source of an element.

This is exactly like the example we all use in describing aluminum brew pots. After the surface is "tempered" then you will not extract negative effects.


And why in the hell are we arguing about carcinogens on a BREWING forum.

Alcohol is one of the most commonly known carcinogens. Why don't we just start an anti-alcohol movement on here and start new threads telling people that alcohol causes cancer?
 

downpantera

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HHP: Yes, that is the case. There is the law of limiting returns meaning that if the total amount of organotin in the pipe is x than say brew 1 leaches 30%x and each subsequent brew will leach less. Eventually all the organotin is washed out. The greater the surface area, the more will be leached in a given brew, which takes into consideration ID, OD, how many holes are drilled and their size, scratches and joints.

Rollingred: you can leach organotin from the polymer matrix the only way you couldn't is if the CPVC was 100% non-porous, which it's not. Solder is non-porous which is why you only get the lead from the surface. But every time you re-passivate it, you expose more lead. Also and chips or nicks in the solder, more lead. Yes, chronic exposure is more of an issue than acute, but the first time you use the manifold, the acute levels will be really high. What cancer does alcohol cause? I know it's a mild liver toxin, but carcinogen is news to me. Also, the difference there is that you have a choice on how much alcohol you consume on a daily basis (and we have an organ to break it down) whereas you can't choose how much organotin you want in your beer, unless you go CPVC/PVC free. You then pass that toxin on to anyone who drinks your beer, usually without them knowing what is/could be in there. I find that unfair, personally.
 

broadbill

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downpantera: Is there a certain point at which cpvc will stop leaching organotins?

The EPA report has an experiement where extractant water at approx 160F is run through CPVC pipe for 22 days. They show that organotin leaching is highest in the first 24 hours the water is running through the pipe then decreases to undetectable levels after day 2.

I know downpantera has issues with the experimental analysis, but I would think that the percent/fold drop should be consistent, regardless of extraction method (i.e you would still observe a 100-fold reduction in leaching, regardless of a crappy vs. good extraction method).

Long story short: yes, CPVC appears to stop leaching organotins very quickly. A good thing to do would be to run hot water through your setup before using.
 

downpantera

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Well something to think about is that if the cure layer has been breached (by drilling holes and/or not using cement to seal the joints) the extraction coefficient is much larger and the decay is much less steep. That being said, I would guess that after maybe 15 - 20 brew sessions you might see the levels of organotin quite low (that is, if you don't scratch the cure layer).
 
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