Important information about CPVC

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Starderup

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A friend of mine is a chemist, and also a brewer that I highly respect. We are putting together a massive system, and were considering CPVC for the mashtun until I got his feedback on the suitability of this material. It is pretty eye opening:

CPVC at elevated temps (say above 120°F) is toxic. It releases unreacted trimethyltin chloride and other organotin species which are highly toxic. They would eventually get reduced to water soluble tin compounds and release hydrochloric acid as a byproduct (which may screw up your mash pH). The tin is a radical catalyst (and hence why it's used in CPVC synthesis) and would produce radicals internally when consumed. Radicals are what cause cancer. PVC and CPVC are only suitable at ambient temperatures and really shouldn't even be used on hot water pipes in homes.

CPVC just got crossed off my list.
 

audger

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For the record, all national building codes have approved CPVC for potable water distribution in the United States and Canada. These approvals have come after extensive testing and quality control standards which guide the production of these products. Today's product meets stringent ANSI/NSF-61 standards for water quality control. There is no scientific evidence that CPVC tubing made to current US standards is in any way harmful to health.
from http://www.builderswebsource.com/techbriefs/cpvccopper.htm

i dont know how CPVC pipe could get past everyones tests and be in such widespread use if there were the dangers that your friend says. maybe certain forms of the chemical under certain conditions, but not the way potable water pipes are made and used.

there are other reasons i would not use CPVC for a brewery though, mainly it being brittle and its ability to harbor bacterial growth on the surface.
 
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Starderup

Starderup

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You are free to go by the industry's claim that CPVC is perfectly safe. I trust my source.
 

Homercidal

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You are free to go by the industry's claim that CPVC is perfectly safe. I trust my source.
Show us your source? Otherwise all we have to go by is what seems like useless fearmongering. CPVC has been used in residential home water systems for decades. Surely SOMEONE would have raised a red flag about it by now, like they have for aluminum?

And really think about what you posted. Do you actually believe that enough of ANYTHING is going to be leeched from CPVC to affect the mash pH???

I'm no chemist, and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I'm pretty confident that the amount of reactants described are going to miniscule, if there are any at all.
 
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Starderup

Starderup

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My source IS a chemist, and I'd have to get his permission to get his name, but he studied organic/polymer chemistry, and now works as a research technician for a polymer firm.
Like I said, you go ahead and use it if you want. As for myself, well, they don't call it the 'Big C' for nothing.
 

lostboysbrew

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I am pretty sure the industry has chemists........they wouldn't nationally approve a product without testing........there are more chemists in the world than your friend.......
 

Pappers_

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Synopsis: "I know a guy who says something is bad." That's not much for us to go on, right?

What you are saying is important, if you can get us a link to a study or some source, that would be helpful.
 
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Starderup

Starderup

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I will cite the next paragraph in the webpage which the original respondant convenient left out.
"However, there is little argument that extended exposure to VCMs which exceed government standards, can lead to neurological and liver effects as well as cancer, such as angiosarcoma - a normally rare form of liver cancer. As long ago as 1961, Dow Chemical researchers concluded that exposure to Vinyl Chloride levels greater than 50 ppm were considered potentially dangerous."

Listen, I was trying to bring something to your attention. I have. If you want to evaluate the risks, you do the research. A trusted friend of mine relayed the information in the original post to me, and that is enough for me personally. I don't know any of you well enough to lose sleep over your choices.

I'm going to unsubscribe from this thread so I don't see any more "Oh yeah? Sez you." replies.
 

BBQBrew01

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If this is true we have one hell of a class action suit on our hands! There are allot of homes in the U.S. with CVPVC hot water pipes!!!
 

lextasy23

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I'm no plumber or chemist, but I believe he's right. Copper is used for supply, and PVC is used for drains. He's talking about PVC/CPVC at elevated temperatures, not at room temperature.

Give the guy a break here, he's trying to help...

Thanks for the tip.
 

astropunk

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dig around enough, Im sure somebody can find something in some circumstance where the mash reacts with a copper manifold and produces what may be harmful side affects. Lets not even get started on the plastics used in all the other equipment.
 

cshamilton

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Starderup said:
I will cite the next paragraph in the webpage which the original respondant convenient left out.
"However, there is little argument that extended exposure to VCMs which exceed government standards, can lead to neurological and liver effects as well as cancer, such as angiosarcoma - a normally rare form of liver cancer. As long ago as 1961, Dow Chemical researchers concluded that exposure to Vinyl Chloride levels greater than 50 ppm were considered potentially dangerous."

Listen, I was trying to bring something to your attention. I have. If you want to evaluate the risks, you do the research. A trusted friend of mine relayed the information in the original post to me, and that is enough for me personally. I don't know any of you well enough to lose sleep over your choices.

I'm going to unsubscribe from this thread so I don't see any more "Oh yeah? Sez you." replies.
If you read more of that report you'll see that NSF certified CPVC is supposed to be OK, also as a side note since 2006 the manufacturing has been adjusted to limit exposure in the production. It appears that the biggest people shouting toxicity have interests in using copper or materials. (testing seems to show no detectable leeching at 180 F)

So is there a risk? I would say it's so minimal as not to worry.

You be the judge, but there are too many more serious things to worry about in my educated opinion. Personally I like copper, but would have no qualms about using CPVC.
 

rack04

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I appreciate you passing along the news but as long as is has NSF-61 certification mark (NSF-61) I will continue to use it.
 

Bobby_M

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I will cite the next paragraph in the webpage which the original respondant convenient left out.
"However, there is little argument that extended exposure to VCMs which exceed government standards, can lead to neurological and liver effects as well as cancer, such as angiosarcoma - a normally rare form of liver cancer. As long ago as 1961, Dow Chemical researchers concluded that exposure to Vinyl Chloride levels greater than 50 ppm were considered potentially dangerous."

Listen, I was trying to bring something to your attention. I have. If you want to evaluate the risks, you do the research. A trusted friend of mine relayed the information in the original post to me, and that is enough for me personally. I don't know any of you well enough to lose sleep over your choices.

I'm going to unsubscribe from this thread so I don't see any more "Oh yeah? Sez you." replies.

Don't post anything that you are not willing to discuss / defend. Don't drop a turd on someone's doorstep and run away ;-)

The text you posted is clearly not in context but the one thing I'll grant is that the intended use of CPVC is residential cold and hot water supplies. Most limit their hot water supply temps to 130F on the high end, maybe 140F which I think is as hot as my controller will go.

The text you posted was "However, there is little argument that extended exposure to VCMs which exceed government standards..." though it has to be in context of what use of CPVC pipe would expose you to VCM levels above the standards the tubing meets. Is it temps of 180F?


I don't have a dog in this hunt though. I use stainless.
 

wildwest450

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I hear if you rub cpvc on your skin in California, you'll get cancer, then aids.


_
 

downpantera

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I was the source used in the original post. My background is in organic and polymer chemistry, particularly synthesis. I have been working for three years now doing research on removing unreacted monomers, catalysts and solvents from polymer matrices to meet EU REACH regulations. They are much more strict than us.

I can tell you first hand that organotin species are nothing to play around with. I have to get a series of blood tests every 3 months to ensure the material is not entering my system and reeking havoc.

Lextasty23 has it right, the rate of diffusion of the catalyst trimethyltin chloride has an "x^2" relationship with temperature. Thusly, 165°F will leach out much more tin than 140°F (which is what most hot water heaters are set at). Moreover, typically copper is used for the source of hot water and all your plastic fitting are polysulfone at the faucet.

Take it from me, the research on toxicity is rarely if ever done from the industry on their own. It is nearly always mandated from the gov't. The Gov't did do research (The EPA, 1981) on TMT and DBT from waste water as it would affect streams and wastewater plants. It found that the amount extracted at 60°C (~140°F) was about half the threshold of the LD50 of rats and recommended against its use, but the recommendation was ignored, since it is not law. The LD50 means when given a certain amount of material based on body weight (usually in mg per kg) 50% of the test subjects died.

CPVC is cheap, easy to extrude, high machineablility and is fire resistant. That is why it is used for water drains. It should not be used as a source of hot water.

You may disagree with me, as this is my opinion based on my knowledge and experience in the polymer industry, and what I have read on the subject. Take it for what it's worth.

Mike
 

audger

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I'm no plumber
well if you were, you would know that CPVC pipe is also often used for hot water supply lines. copper isnt the only choice for every single house on the planet.

in 2007, california, the state with the strictest environmental laws (by far) in the US, approved CPVC for potable water installations. it was based on this report
http://www.usgbc.org/Docs/LEED_tsac/USGBC_TSAC_PVC_Draft_Report_12-17-04..pdf

the majority of the toxicity arguments come from the manufacturing or recycling/burning of PVC materials, not from the use of them. as we are not talking about either manufacturing or disposing of CPVC in brewing, these concerns are irrlevant to us.

here are the ASTM standards about CPVC
http://www.astm.org/Standards/F441.htm

I will cite the next paragraph in the webpage which the original respondant convenient left out.
"However, there is little argument that extended exposure to VCMs which exceed government standards, can lead to neurological and liver effects as well as cancer, such as angiosarcoma - a normally rare form of liver cancer. As long ago as 1961, Dow Chemical researchers concluded that exposure to Vinyl Chloride levels greater than 50 ppm were considered potentially dangerous."
they use the words "vinyl chloride", which is a significantly different chemical from "chlorinated poly vinyl chloride" used in pipes. who knows which chemical they actually meant. chemistry has changed since 1961. all reports that i was able to find of PVC pipe being toxic, talked only about PVC pipe made prior to 1977. more then 30 years ago.

also, we arent talking about chewing on the pipe and actually ingesting pieces of it; we are talking about seperate chemicals, sequestered in the plastic, being leeched out into the water(or into wort). this is not the same as "exposure to vinyl chloride", that actually isnt even one of the chemicals some people claim to be a problem. (C)PVC is not what leeches out.

im sure more than one chemist has looked into this before. i would put more trust in reports that claim cellphones cause brain cancer, then CPVC pipes are poisoning our drinking water. i still dont recomend using CPVC in a brewery, but for reasons that are actually valid.
 

wildwest450

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CPVC is cheap, easy to extrude, high machineablility and is fire resistant. That is why it is used for water drains. It should not be used as a source of hot water.
CPVC is NOT used for water drains, PVC is. CPVC has, and is being used in thousands and thousands of homes for potable hot water.

_
 

Homercidal

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Bottom line is, how much is likely to enter our systems from using CPVC in our brewing? And how much is dangerous? What exactly is the danger here?

People use CPVC for hot water supplies, where they run 130-140F water through many feet of plastic for MANY YEARS. Brewers soak a couple of feet for an hour or so, up to a few times a month.

I'm not saying that there isn't any leeching, or that there isn't a danger at some level, but I'd like to know what constitutes an honest risk, and do brewers meet the risk factors.

Any links to studies? Peer reviews?

Personally, I use copper, both for brewing and for supply lines in my house. I'm not at danger there. I'm sure I'm getting bad stuff from somewhere though. It's all around us (even naturally).

All we're asking for is some numbers, some better understanding. Forgive if we are somewhat skeptical. Surely you understand that even Galileo had his work cut out for him persuading people that the Earth was not flat.
 

downpantera

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Bottom line is, how much is likely to enter our systems from using CPVC in our brewing? And how much is dangerous? What exactly is the danger here?... All we're asking for is some numbers, some better understanding.
Well I can't speak to specifics as I am under a confidentiality agreement. All I can legally say is that an increase of temperature exponentially increases the efficiency of leaching organotin into water. Given that at ground water temps, say 70°F on average there is a leaching of 0 - 100 ppt. You have two things helping you in drinking water, flow rate and temperature. Organotins are not very soluble at low temps, which is why you get low extraction. Also, since the water flows relatively quickly through the pipes, there is a short contact time. Even in hot water pipes, the water left in the lines quickly cools due to surface area. Mashing is different, since there is at least a 1 hr hold time, acidic pHs, recirculation and much higher temps. There are no published papers talking about elevated temps above 120°F that I know of. If you apply the extraction efficiency equation you get to toxic levels above 150°F. That's all I can really say.
If you don't want to hear it and don't want to believe it, I'm not twisting your arms. I was asked by a friend and volunteered the info that I believe it to be a very bad idea to use CPVC in elevated temperature situations, especially mashing. You may not. We're all adults here, and it's your call in the end. I'm just trying to help.
 

astropunk

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I will believe you, but what I (and many others) want to know is HOW MUCH of the bad stuff leaches out, and HOW MUCH is toxic. We all know that automobile exhaust is toxic, but I am not going to run for cover inside when a truck spewing black smoke drives by my house.
 

broadbill

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Well I can't speak to specifics as I am under a confidentiality agreement. All I can legally say is that an increase of temperature exponentially increases the efficiency of leaching organotin into water. Given that at ground water temps, say 70°F on average there is a leaching of 0 - 100 ppt. You have two things helping you in drinking water, flow rate and temperature. Organotins are not very soluble at low temps, which is why you get low extraction. Also, since the water flows relatively quickly through the pipes, there is a short contact time. Even in hot water pipes, the water left in the lines quickly cools due to surface area. Mashing is different, since there is at least a 1 hr hold time, acidic pHs, recirculation and much higher temps. There are no published papers talking about elevated temps above 120°F that I know of. If you apply the extraction efficiency equation you get to toxic levels above 150°F. That's all I can really say.
If you don't want to hear it and don't want to believe it, I'm not twisting your arms. I was asked by a friend and volunteered the info that I believe it to be a very bad idea to use CPVC in elevated temperature situations, especially mashing. You may not. We're all adults here, and it's your call in the end. I'm just trying to help.
I'm not expert either, but I read the wikipedia page on organotins...

Its mentions that diorganotins and monoorganotins are the forms that are used in the manufacture of PVC. They also say these forms have the lowest toxicity. Can you comment on this?

Also,
 

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I was the source used in the original post. My background is in organic and polymer chemistry, particularly synthesis. I have been working for three years now doing research on removing unreacted monomers, catalysts and solvents from polymer matrices to meet EU REACH regulations. They are much more strict than us.

I can tell you first hand that organotin species are nothing to play around with. I have to get a series of blood tests every 3 months to ensure the material is not entering my system and reeking havoc.

Lextasty23 has it right, the rate of diffusion of the catalyst trimethyltin chloride has an "x^2" relationship with temperature. Thusly, 165°F will leach out much more tin than 140°F (which is what most hot water heaters are set at). Moreover, typically copper is used for the source of hot water and all your plastic fitting are polysulfone at the faucet.

Take it from me, the research on toxicity is rarely if ever done from the industry on their own. It is nearly always mandated from the gov't. The Gov't did do research (The EPA, 1981) on TMT and DBT from waste water as it would affect streams and wastewater plants. It found that the amount extracted at 60°C (~140°F) was about half the threshold of the LD50 of rats and recommended against its use, but the recommendation was ignored, since it is not law. The LD50 means when given a certain amount of material based on body weight (usually in mg per kg) 50% of the test subjects died.

CPVC is cheap, easy to extrude, high machineablility and is fire resistant. That is why it is used for water drains. It should not be used as a source of hot water.

You may disagree with me, as this is my opinion based on my knowledge and experience in the polymer industry, and what I have read on the subject. Take it for what it's worth.

Mike
I appreciate the information. Like I said with the OP, it would be tremendously helpful if you could cite or link to some study or source.
 

downpantera

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I will believe you, but what I (and many others) want to know is HOW MUCH of the bad stuff leaches out, and HOW MUCH is toxic. We all know that automobile exhaust is toxic, but I am not going to run for cover inside when a truck spewing black smoke drives by my house.
Again I run into confidentiality issues. Legally I can't say how much leaches out, but like I said, above 150°F you get into the acutely toxic levels, and that's at neutral pH's.

Toxicity levels are measured in many different ways, mg/kg, ppt, total mg extracted or mg/hr depending on what type of toxicity you're talking about. mg/kg is for LD50, ppt is for drinking water, mg/hr is LEL (long term exposure limit). I am looking at total mg extracted (actually ug) as a function of concentration, or ppb. Let's say we're talking the toxicity levels in your beer. We're looking at about 150 ug to be acutely toxic, ie you get ill. For roughly 4 pints (2 Liters) you would need about 75 ppb. Oddly many of the symptoms of organotin toxicity are similar to a hangover, ie dehydration, headache, nausea, lethargy, liver failure, weight gain.
 

downpantera

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I appreciate the information. Like I said with the OP, it would be tremendously helpful if you could cite or link to some study or source.
Part of my own research project I've been working on for the past three years. It's not public. It is confidential, owned by my employer.
 

JetSmooth

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I don't want to question your integrity or intent.

I'm not doubting or judging here. But you have some pretty cynnical and critical minds on this forum that will test and test until something's proven. That's the mindset of a homebrewer.

You should read some of the posts on Harold Camping's Judgement Day prophecy from last month.

But proclaiming a "Great Danger" and not being willing (Camping's case) or able (yours apparently) to back it up sounds a bit like fearmongering. Leave that up to the government. ;)
 

Displaced MassHole

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I just used a CPVC manifold in my mash and now I'm dead.

Typing this from beyond the grave wishing I had read this post 3 hours ago.....damn
 

downpantera

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I never intended to post that info on here at all. A friend of mine posted it after I told him about what I thought. I just came on here to defend it. I know people want to defend something they use because they don't want to change. I understand that, and I'm saying keep using what you are. I'm not telling you all what to do. I was just recommending to a friend not to build a system with CPVC due to toxicity concerns. Quite frankly, I'm a bit tired of it all now.
 

JetSmooth

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Good riddance masshole. We all know there is a difference b/w toxicity, cancer suspect agents and death. You're not funny.:off:
No, we don't all know that. We're stoopid Americans (most of us).

Think of us like Phil Hartman's Frankenstein. . .. FIRE BAD!!!

;)
 

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Part of my own research project I've been working on for the past three years. It's not public. It is confidential, owned by my employer.
Again, not denigrating your work. The way our knowledge advances is that a study is done and published. Other scientists look at the study, pull it apart, try to replicate it, confirm it or debunk it, and a consensus is reached, our accumulated knowledge is increased. Are you thinking of someway to move this from your lab to the general scientific community?
 

downpantera

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Again, not denigrating your work. The way our knowledge advances is that a study is done and published. Other scientists look at the study, pull it apart, try to replicate it, confirm it or debunk it, and a consensus is reached, our accumulated knowledge is increased. Are you thinking of someway to move this from your lab to the general scientific community?
That is not the way things are done in industry. That is academia and the public sector, when advancement of knowledge is a desired goal. In industry having an upper hand on your competitors and complying with international regulations are the driving forces behind innovation, research and development. To be able to produce a product with 50x less "residuals" than the competition puts us at a market advantage since the EU regulations are much more strict than the US. To share my research would put my company at a disadvantage, since they paid all the cost and then share it with people who we are trying to beat out in Europe. It's all about the Benjamins Baby!!
 

Homercidal

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In the end you've done nothing for us. Like was posted, many here are suspicious of anything that resembles fearmongering, and they demand proof, which you are unwilling to provide for fear of being fired (nutshell). Without published studies, reviewed by other capable people, the information won't be accepted.

Ok, maybe some will think twice about using CPVC for a mash tun manifold. Most will not.

I personally use copper. Copper itself has it's own issues, namely that it's also toxic. However, yeast use a certain amount of copper in it's reproduction, which helps to negate it from our use (yeast eventually flocculate, and we rack our beer from on top of them, leaving them behind.)

Is there any chance that the brewing process can eliminate the harmful byproducts of the CPVC pipe, say during the boil, or during fermentation?
 

SwampassJ

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That is not the way things are done in industry. That is academia and the public sector, when advancement of knowledge is a desired goal. In industry having an upper hand on your competitors and complying with international regulations are the driving forces behind innovation, research and development. To be able to produce a product with 50x less "residuals" than the competition puts us at a market advantage since the EU regulations are much more strict than the US. To share my research would put my company at a disadvantage, since they paid all the cost and then share it with people who we are trying to beat out in Europe. It's all about the Benjamins Baby!!
So as long as your company can make cash on it they will say something is more dangerous than what everyone has been made to believe? Yeah this doesn't sound like bull**** fear mongering.

This thread is like that thread a few months back about Igloo coolers causing cancer where the OP refused to tell us how he came to that conclusion.

The initial post had my interest (I don't use CPVC) and then lost it when he started running in circles and hiding. Thank you ignore.
 

lextasy23

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I will believe you, but what I (and many others) want to know is HOW MUCH of the bad stuff leaches out, and HOW MUCH is toxic. We all know that automobile exhaust is toxic, but I am not going to run for cover inside when a truck spewing black smoke drives by my house.
Neither would I. But the fact remains you'd probably live longer if you did.
 

astropunk

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Neither would I. But the fact remains you'd probably live longer if you did.
I doubt it. My house is probably full of Radon. :drunk:

Pantera, I say you invoke the whistleblower protection act and publish these results. Send em to wikileaks if you have to...the people gotta know!
 

downpantera

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So as long as your company can make cash on it they will say something is more dangerous than what everyone has been made to believe? Yeah this doesn't sound like bull**** fear mongering.

This thread is like that thread a few months back about Igloo coolers causing cancer where the OP refused to tell us how he came to that conclusion.

The initial post had my interest (I don't use CPVC) and then lost it when he started running in circles and hiding. Thank you ignore.
Ummm, the MSDS and toxicity reports say how dangerous it is, not the industries. The EU's REACH and the US's EPA regulate how much can be in a product and be legally used in commercial/residential applications. We just try to figure out how to reduce the residual contaminants. Stop jumping to conclusions. If you want to blame someone for fearmongering, its the people who produce the LD50 test and other toxicology reports. Those are publicly available by the way.
 

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