Imperial Stout water advice. Really need help

[radu]

I brewed a couple of RIS but only recently water started capturing my attention. I want to brew another RIS and i have the following water profile: pH: 7.8, Ca: 100ppm, Cl: 20ppm, SO4: 200ppm, Alkalinity: 80ppm. Dont know the Sodium content or other info. The thing is that after I get the info into brew n water and all the types of malt, the pH is of course very low.

With 0.14 g/L of calcium chloride (I want to raise the Cl to 100ppm), 0.18g/L baking soda, 0.15g/l pickling lime I just manage to get the pH to 5.26 which is quite low for a RIS. The problem is that the mash calcium level is 232ppm which seems pretty high and if I want the pH around 5.5 then the Ca level will rise to 300.

What would you recommend? Add more minerals and raise the Ca level or go with lower pH level and Ca around 200ppm?

 

[GnenieGone]

Something looks amiss. I use RO with pH of 7. My RIS Dark grains and just a tad of gypsum and Calcium Cloride get to around 5.3-5.4. Never been that low especially with that alkalinity seems surprising.

 

[ajdelange]

I'd suggest you try other brewing programs. You can then decide which one's answer you like best and use that one to determine an alkali addition to use in a small trial test mash. These programs are just not reliable enough to commit your brewing day to, especially when dark malts are involved.

 

[radu]

Something looks amiss. I use RO with pH of 7. My RIS Dark grains and just a tad of gypsum and Calcium Cloride get to around 5.3-5.4. Never been that low especially with that alkalinity seems surprising.

Well I have around 13% roasted malts and 12% crystal so that is why my pH is really low.

 

[cire]

To a degree, depending upon your intended grain to liquor ratio, it is possible your raw water might produce a suitable mash pH although possibly not precisely as you hope. The sulfate content will most probably produce a excessively dry and potentially astringent stout. Assuming a balanced profile together with the ion quantities given, it appears the sodium content would not be far removed from 20 ppm, allowing significantly more to be added without detriment.

In British dark beers, stouts and porters it has been common practice to add salt, or preferably potassium chloride, to increase chloride levels when there is already sufficient calcium.

You might wish to consider using a very pale malt and some flaked barley which could raise mash pH a little.

 

[ajdelange]

Well I have around 13% roasted malts and 12% crystal so that is why my pH is really low.

To a degree, depending upon your intended grain to liquor ratio, it is possible your raw water might produce a suitable mash pH although possibly not precisely as you hope.

Indeed if I assume you want an OG of 14 °P, a mash thickness of 1.4 qts/lb, 75% Rahr pale ale malt, 12% 80L crystal and 14% 600L roast I get an estimated pH of 5.36 without the added alkali. The alkalinity of the water pulls the estimate up 0.07 pH relative to DI, the added bicarbonate pulls it up by 0.091 and the lime by 0.188 to 5.63 with both of these additions. Thus what Bru'n water is giving you does not seem reasonable. That program has lots of problems with dark beers which is why I suggest you try other programs. They have their shortcomings too but you may get more reasonable answers from them. Of course before blaming Bru'n water you need to check that you are using it right.

 

[GnenieGone]

Well I have around 13% roasted malts and 12% crystal so that is why my pH is really low.

my fav, 10-fidy clone, uses 10% EACH roasted/chocolate along with 60 Crystal.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Well I have around 13% roasted malts and 12% crystal so that is why my pH is really low.

Is your "really low pH" in reference to software output or via by pH meter verification?

 

[radu]

Indeed if I assume you want an OG of 14 °P, a mash thickness of 1.4 qts/lb, 75% Rahr pale ale malt, 12% 80L crystal and 14% 600L roast I get an estimated pH of 5.36 without the added alkali. The alkalinity of the water pulls the estimate up 0.07 pH relative to DI, the added bicarbonate pulls it up by 0.091 and the lime by 0.188 to 5.63 with both of these additions. Thus what Bru'n water is giving you does not seem reasonable. That program has lots of problems with dark beers which is why I suggest you try other programs. They have their shortcomings too but you may get more reasonable answers from them. Of course before blaming Bru'n water you need to check that you are using it right.

Actually the OG will be around 25P, mash thickness will be around 1.3qts/lb. The proportions are these:

Pale Ale - 53%
Munich - 10%
Roasted Barley - 4.2%
Chocolate - 3.8%
Pale Chocolate - 7%
C60 - 5%
C120 - 4%
Special B - 2%
Oats - 11%

Can you recommend some other software that would maybe help me more?

 

[ajdelange]

Those particulars don't change the picture much insofar as the malts I choose to resemble those you are actually using match the malts you are actually using.

As for other calculators: There are two things required of a calculator:
1)It must model the chemistry accurately
2)It must be fed data numbers that actually represent the malts being used.

The only calculator I am aware of that accurately models the chemistry is the Brewer's Friend offering. There is no calculator I am aware of that provides accurate malt data because, first, few authors understand what to measure and second because those few can't possibly measure all the malts out there including the bag you have lying on your brewery floor. Thus pH estimation by these programs is pretty iffy and that's why I recommend use of them only for rough guidance and as a teaching tool and suggest people make determinations as to what to do based on actual pH measurements of test mashes.