Imperial stout verses Imperial porter

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Brewpastor

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:drunk: Imperial Stout verses Imperial Porter:drunk: , what would be the difference? I really love Stone's Imperial Stout. It is big and hoppy like their Ruination IPA but very roasty and malty. So it would be nice to make one. But then I was thinking I really like porters more then I like stout so I put together an Imperial Porter recipe (which I have posted: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=13428)

What I am interested in is a general discussion of what this beer should be like and how it would differ from an Imperial Stout.

I was thinking it would be different in the use of chocolate and black malt as opposed to roasted barley and Black Patent malt. My guess is the IBUs would be huge. My recipe has 100+ IBUs (my Imperial IPA has 200+). What do you all think about these styles and how they should copare/differ?
 
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Brewpastor

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12C. Baltic Porter

Aroma: Rich malty sweetness often containing caramel, toffee, nutty to deep toast, and/or licorice notes. Complex alcohol and ester profile of moderate strength, and reminiscent of plums, prunes, raisins, cherries or currants, occasionally with a vinous Port-like quality. Some darker malt character that is deep chocolate, coffee or molasses but never burnt. No hops. No sourness. Very smooth.
Appearance: Dark reddish copper to opaque dark brown (not black). Thick, persistent tan-colored head. Clear, although darker versions can be opaque.
Flavor: As with aroma, has a rich malty sweetness with a complex blend of deep malt, dried fruit esters, and alcohol. Has a prominent yet smooth schwarzbier-like roasted flavor that stops short of burnt. Mouth-filling and very smooth. Clean lager character; no diacetyl. Starts sweet but darker malt flavors quickly dominates and persists through finish. Just a touch dry with a hint of roast coffee or licorice in the finish. Malt can have a caramel, toffee, nutty, molasses and/or licorice complexity. Light hints of black currant and dark fruits. Medium-low to medium bitterness from malt and hops, just to provide balance. Perhaps a hint of hop flavor.
Mouthfeel: Generally quite full-bodied and smooth, with a well-aged alcohol warmth (although the rarer lower gravity Carnegie-style versions will have a medium body and less warmth). Medium to medium-high carbonation, making it seem even more mouth-filling. Not heavy on the tongue due to carbonation level.
Overall Impression: A Baltic Porter often has the malt flavors reminiscent of an English brown porter and the restrained roast of a schwarzbier, but with a higher OG and alcohol content than either. Very complex, with multi-layered flavors.
History: Traditional beer from countries bordering the Baltic Sea. Derived from English porters but influenced by Russian Imperial Stouts.
Comments: May also be described as an Imperial Porter, although heavily roasted or hopped versions should be entered as either Imperial Stouts or specialty beers. An ABV of 7 - 8.5% is most typical.
Ingredients: Generally lager yeast (cold fermented if using ale yeast). Debittered chocolate or black malt. Munich or Vienna base malt. Continental hops. May contain crystal malts and/or adjuncts. Brown or amber malt common in historical recipes.
Vital Statistics:
OGFGIBUsSRMABV1.060 - 1.0901.016 - 1.02420 - 4017 - 305.5 - 9.5%

Commercial Examples: Sinebrychoff Porter (Finland), Zywiec Porter (Poland), Baltika Porter (Russia), Carnegie Stark Porter (Sweden), Dojlidy Polski (Poland), Aldaris Porteris (Latvia), Utenos Porter (Lithuania), Kozlak Porter (Poland), Stepan Razin Porter (Russia)
 

sonvolt

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Stout vs. Porter = Stouts should have no Black Patent malt, Porters should.

This is speaking in historical terms of course, I've seen all kinds of stouts using Black Patent, but it is not really a historical trait of the style.

IMO, a stout should be roastier than a porter, too.
 

Delaney

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I was reading a book on Porters by Michael Jackson recently. There is a fine line between Porters and Stouts...and it is gray at that.

Because the two styles can be very similar, a beer could sometimes fall into either category, and it is often up to the brewer to decide what style it should be referred to as.

According to the book I read, the flavor and aroma of a porter should come through as a single flavor/aroma. With a stout, there should be more than one flavor/aroma which are distinguishable to the pallet. To me this is the determining factor, so long as your SRM, ABV, IBUs and debatedly malt types allow your brew to fall into either category.
 

shanecb

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I no longer see much of a different between stout and porter (to an extent). Even the ingredient guidelines always come off as technical crap to me, since there are countless examples of "violations". I just look at it as a continuum anymore, starting down at the brown porter and running the gamut up to Russian Imperial Stout. It's really once you get into the middle of the range that things get hazy.

It's just that I've had "stouts" that I would have said were porters, and "porters" that I would have said are stouts. There's definitely a gray line there.

I really like this write up here: http://zythophile.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/so-what-is-the-difference-between-porter-and-stout/
 

Bonde

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Well, in the old days it was used to be called a Porter Stout/Stout porter when a porter became stronger than usual (or was it the other way around). At least thats what i've read in a describtion of English beer history. But guess the storys vary a bit from book to book. But Stout just equeals storng right?

As i've understod it, an imperial Stout is just an extra hopped strong Porter. Imperial Porter = Extra hopped porter/doubbel brown :)
 

Delaney

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Well, in the old days it was used to be called a Porter Stout/Stout porter when a porter became stronger than usual (or was it the other way around). At least thats what i've read in a describtion of English beer history. But guess the storys vary a bit from book to book. But Stout just equeals storng right?

As i've understod it, an imperial Stout is just an extra hopped strong Porter. Imperial Porter = Extra hopped porter/doubbel brown :)
imperial stout is usually higher alcohol percentage.
Just look at the recipes, you'll notice differences, but you'll also notice the fine line where a beer can be regarded as either a porter or a stout.
 

Guess42

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Stout vs. Porter = Stouts should have no Black Patent malt, Porters should.

This is speaking in historical terms of course, I've seen all kinds of stouts using Black Patent, but it is not really a historical trait of the style.

IMO, a stout should be roastier than a porter, too.
Courage russian imperial stout might have something to say about this.
 

StMarcos

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I always thought stout needed some rb in it. My oat stout has choc, rb, and bp, and I don't think it tastes out of style. To me, bp has a charcoal-like dustiness to it, whereas rb has more of a sour twang.
 

patto1ro

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I always thought stout needed some rb in it. My oat stout has choc, rb, and bp, and I don't think it tastes out of style. To me, bp has a charcoal-like dustiness to it, whereas rb has more of a sour twang.
Roast barley wasn't allowed in beer in Britain before 1880. A brewer caught using would have been fined and could have had his equipment confiscated. Guinness didn't start using roast barley until the 1930's.

The only difference historically between Porter and Stout was the amount of water used. Otherwise the recipes were identical.

Stout is just the name for strong Porter. All Stouts are Porters, but not all Porters are Stouts.
 

aaronbeach

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I think most (modern/american/craft) beer drinkers tend to share an intuitive sense of where porter leaves off and stout picks up (however I may be wrong here).

I'd say the dividing line between porter and stout tends to be agreed upon nowadays in terms of how roasted the beer is and not so much in terms of gravity. Hence an Imperial Porter still makes sense as long as its not overly roasted in taste. The use of roasted barley is a dead give-away for a stout, but even heavy-ish usage of black patent at a certain point just needs to be called a stout.

So I'd say the dividing line between porter and stout is in the human perceived "roasty-ness" of the beer - with Stout being more roasted and porters less.
 

djfriesen

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As soon as I saw it was a thread started by BP, I knew it was gonna be a zombie.
 

jason_g

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This is just me but when I judge a stout and porter I look at mouthfeel, roastyness, gravity and bitterness... that said I am new to this. Porters to me have less mouthfeel and tend to be a lighter version of a stout. Stouts (to me) should stick to your face like a syrup or milk, oily in some cases. I have also noticed in most cases that my local breweries (here in michigan) send their stouts out with a higher alcohol and less dry taste... porters and stouts are my favorite type of brews so over and above all I hope to drink my way through this quandary
 

rmyurick

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An acquaintance of mine who is a professional brewer (micro-) thinks that porters should not have a roasted barley character. However, some of the recipes in Terry Foster's book "Porter" do contain a small amount of RB.
 

MT2sum

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When I first learned to brew porter, other brewers told me roasted barley was for stout and black patent was for porter. I still follow that guidance to this day, but I think it is just from habit more than anything else.
Robust Porter: Style Profile Author: Jamil Zainasheff BYO Issue: September 2012
 
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