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Beerthoven

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The Drug War is a failure of epic proportions. Yet it continues unabated because of American's moronic attitude toward drugs and law enforcements addiction to drug enforcement funding.

At least the story is getting some exposure, so hopefully enough people will stand up to support this guy.

What about the hundreds, thousands, of other cases that we never hear about every year?
 

cubbies

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Angry is not even the proper adjective. Furious, enraged, dumbfounded. Those are better.

Why does stuff like this have to keep happening. One man is dead, another in jail, possibly for the rest of the life, or killed himself, 10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars are going to be spent...and for what? What is accomplished? What can we look at and say this is the reason it was worth sacrificing lives....this is the reason so many billions (trillions?) were spent over the years. This was the goal and we accomplished it. Where? What is it?

GRRRRR.....
 

JohnA111

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Beyond the questions of the efficacy of the "Drug War", how about the unconstitutional paramilitary armies that most police departments have made for themselves with cheap purchases of surplus US military gear. When is somebody going to face the fact that this is a "boy's toys" club for the weekends. Does it make anyone feel safer when the police are armed better than the army at times? Or does it make anyone worried like myself?

Police does not equal Army.
 

TxBrew

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Also our prison system is becoming privitized. They have lobbyists to help keep drug laws intact to preserve their clients coming in for extended stays at their lock and key resorts.
 

Ryanh1801

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It makes me mad for the fact that now Detective Jarrod Shivers three kids and wife now have to live with out him..:(
 
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Ryanh1801 said:
It makes me mad for the fact that now Detective Jarrod Shivers three kids and wife now have to live with out him..:(
Of course, his death is a huge part of this tragedy. There isn't a person reading this story that doesn't feel for the officer and his family. The key is to correctly identify the factors and circumstances that led to his death, and correct them so it doesn't happen again.
 

mrfocus

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Hum let's see, Japanese Maple is a tree, it's branches are greyish.

Cannabis is a plant that is all green...

I just hope this gets thrown out of court as the information to get the warrant was obtained illegally (breaking and entering...)
 

NWernBrewer

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This kind of over-whelming overkill from the police is nothing new and has happened time and time again through our history. But with the funding going to better and better weapons and gear, the same tactics that once saved officer's lives are making them dangerously deadly. Top that off with an attitude that allows "no-knock" warrants and procedures that resemble nothing more than a robbery (or military action,) and you get a dangerous situation that will continue to claim lives on any side of the law. Nobody deserves to die by the hands of a zealot or n00b under-trained or over-indoctrinated.

Here in Seattle we had a while ago where a jaywalking citation turned into a massive multiple officer beating in the street. There is a civil suit - but money doesn't give you the time back that you spend wrongfully locked up or in the hospital.

Its tragic - and all over temperance and taxes.
 

Fingers

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Let's look on the bright side, this guy won't be sitting in his house and smoking weed anymore. We're all safe now!
 

GNBrews

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Fingers said:
Let's look on the bright side, this guy won't be sitting in his house and smoking weed anymore. We're all safe now!
LOL..the Cheetos are safe anyway. ;)
 

Bob Loblaw

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JohnA111 said:
Beyond the questions of the efficacy of the "Drug War", how about the unconstitutional paramilitary armies that most police departments have made for themselves with cheap purchases of surplus US military gear. When is somebody going to face the fact that this is a "boy's toys" club for the weekends. Does it make anyone feel safer when the police are armed better than the army at times? Or does it make anyone worried like myself?

Police does not equal Army.
Have been in the army, got the Iraqi T-shirt, not happy with that situation either (anyone want to say Vietnam...). The army is full of idiots with guns, so many "accidental discharges"!! I don't trust cops either for this reason... oh and the fact that they generally act like authoritarian ********, not out to protect your safety!

PS. Legalize it! Do it for the vets! haha
 
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Evan!

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BlindLemonLars said:
Of course, his death is a huge part of this tragedy. There isn't a person reading this story that doesn't feel for the officer and his family. The key is to correctly identify the factors and circumstances that led to his death, and correct them so it doesn't happen again.
Bravo. The blame for Shivers' death lies on the shoulders of the over-zealous superiors who sent him to serve a no-knock warrant on someone based on the suspicion that he was growing some pot in his yard, which came from an informant---and informants will typically say anything to shave some jail time off their sentence.

The death of Office Shivers rests on the shoulders of those very scumbags who put him in harm's way for nothing more than a plant. Or, the assumed, erroneous suspicion of a plant. The blood is on their hands. And they should be sentenced for it, not this man who was simply trying to protect his home and himself from invaders.
 
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Evan! said:
Bravo. The blame for Shivers' death lies on the shoulders of the over-zealous superiors who sent him to serve a no-knock warrant on someone based on the suspicion that he was growing some pot in his yard,
That's really the legal crux of it. Never mind whether marijuana laws are justified or not, why did somebody feel it necessary to authorize a no-knock warrant for a marijuana grower?!? Did they feel there was a risk of him leaping into his yard, uprooting enormous plants, carrying them back inside and flushing them?
 

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This one starts off with the Katherine Johnson story already posted, but Randy Cassingham has been writing about both the war on drugs and the no-knock phenomenon for some time.
If this kind of thinking is up your alley I highly recommend his weekly e-mail publication "This is True". Also highly related is his "True Stella Awards" which talks about the abuses of the legal system.
I've been a subscriber for about 12 years now.
 

PeteOz77

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Evan! said:
Bravo. The blame for Shivers' death lies on the shoulders of the over-zealous superiors who sent him to serve a no-knock warrant on someone based on the suspicion that he was growing some pot in his yard, which came from an informant---and informants will typically say anything to shave some jail time off their sentence.

The death of Office Shivers rests on the shoulders of those very scumbags who put him in harm's way for nothing more than a plant. Or, the assumed, erroneous suspicion of a plant. The blood is on their hands. And they should be sentenced for it, not this man who was simply trying to protect his home and himself from invaders.
I agree.... However...

I'm sorry, but it's just common sense. you do NOT EVER shoot through a door because you THINK you know what's on the other side of it.

Yes, the police were wrong in the way they handled this situation, and if they hadn't been acting inappropriately, no shots would have been fired, but I still have to lay the blame for the death of the officer on a scared little man shooting through a DOOR.

As far as I am concerned, using a weapon (Gun or any other) when you are reasonably certain that you are about to seriously harmed or killed, is 100% justifiable in every instance. But using a weapon (Gun or any other) on an unknown assailant that you cannot see, or be certain of, is NEVER justifiable.

ANY time you pull a trigger, you need to be CERTAIN of your target, and their intent.

I would rather take a beating from a couple of overzealous cops than KILL one of them by accident.
 

Beerthoven

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TxBrew said:
Also our prison system is becoming privitized. They have lobbyists to help keep drug laws intact to preserve their clients coming in for extended stays at their lock and key resorts.
This is disgusting. I'm sure they are using "science" to justify their arguments, just like the tobacco companies.
 

Fingers

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PeteOz77 said:
I agree.... However...

I'm sorry, but it's just common sense. you do NOT EVER shoot through a door because you THINK you know what's on the other side of it.

Yes, the police were wrong in the way they handled this situation, and if they hadn't been acting inappropriately, no shots would have been fired, but I still have to lay the blame for the death of the officer on a scared little man shooting through a DOOR.

As far as I am concerned, using a weapon (Gun or any other) when you are reasonably certain that you are about to seriously harmed or killed, is 100% justifiable in every instance. But using a weapon (Gun or any other) on an unknown assailant that you cannot see, or be certain of, is NEVER justifiable.

ANY time you pull a trigger, you need to be CERTAIN of your target, and their intent.

I would rather take a beating from a couple of overzealous cops than KILL one of them by accident.
That's a really good point. Like most others, I condemn the law that precipitated this insanity, but shooting at an unknown target is pretty nuts especially when you know that target is human. There has to be a consequence for lethal force unless it's to protect your own life.
 

Ryanh1801

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PeteOz77 said:
I agree.... However...

I'm sorry, but it's just common sense. you do NOT EVER shoot through a door because you THINK you know what's on the other side of it.

Yes, the police were wrong in the way they handled this situation, and if they hadn't been acting inappropriately, no shots would have been fired, but I still have to lay the blame for the death of the officer on a scared little man shooting through a DOOR.

As far as I am concerned, using a weapon (Gun or any other) when you are reasonably certain that you are about to seriously harmed or killed, is 100% justifiable in every instance. But using a weapon (Gun or any other) on an unknown assailant that you cannot see, or be certain of, is NEVER justifiable.

ANY time you pull a trigger, you need to be CERTAIN of your target, and their intent.

I would rather take a beating from a couple of overzealous cops than KILL one of them by accident.

Best post in this thread. :mug:
 

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Fingers said:
That's a really good point. Like most others, I condemn the law that precipitated this insanity, but shooting at an unknown target is pretty nuts especially when you know that target is human. There has to be a consequence for lethal force unless it's to protect your own life.
However, if you read the article carefully, it sounds like the shooter could see a target and the the officer was actually entering the premise when he was fired upon.

FTA: According to interviews since the incident, Frederick says when he looked toward his front door, he saw an intruder trying to enter through one of the lower door panels. So Frederick fired his gun.


Another point I'd like to bring up: while there is some blame to be spread around on the detective's superiors, there is some for the dead officer as well. That detective could have said "Hey, guys--- if this guys is growing pot, we dont' really need a noknock entry. After all, what's he gonna do-- flush the evidence? And we know he's got a real job. Why don't we get the search warrant and roll up on the guy when he gets home from work, before he even enters the house and ask him if we can search. If he says no, we produce the warrant and go anyway. No violence, no risk and, if we're lucky, an uncontestable, freely consented search."

But the cop didn't. he decided to enter the house with violence and, from the sounds of it, incompetent violence. Any cop that can't figure out how to take a door without having to bust in a lower panel and freaking CRAWL in is incompetent and is making a gross tactical error.
 

cubbies

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PeteOz77 said:
I'm sorry, but it's just common sense. you do NOT EVER shoot through a door because you THINK you know what's on the other side of it.
Screw that. If someone is breaking down my door, I am not going to sit there and wait for him to explain his reasoning before taking action. This stuff happens so fast.

Lets assume for a second that this was not the police. Lets assume that it was a couple of cracked out thugs coming to kill him. Should he wait? Should he sit there and make sure it is not someone peacefully kicking his door down? No, no way, screw that. If I am in this kids shoes I shoot too. You don't want me shooting through my door, don't try knocking it down...especially after dark.

I of course feel terrible for the officer and his family. I mentioned it in my first post. There was no reason for him to die. It should have never happened. However, just because it should have never happened, does not mean I blame the man defending his home. It is fully on the intruders and the people who sent them there.

Effing shame. I hope someday I live in a world where this atrocity is a part of history.
 
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Evan!

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PeteOz77 said:
I agree.... However...

I'm sorry, but it's just common sense. you do NOT EVER shoot through a door because you THINK you know what's on the other side of it.

Yes, the police were wrong in the way they handled this situation, and if they hadn't been acting inappropriately, no shots would have been fired, but I still have to lay the blame for the death of the officer on a scared little man shooting through a DOOR.

As far as I am concerned, using a weapon (Gun or any other) when you are reasonably certain that you are about to seriously harmed or killed, is 100% justifiable in every instance. But using a weapon (Gun or any other) on an unknown assailant that you cannot see, or be certain of, is NEVER justifiable.

ANY time you pull a trigger, you need to be CERTAIN of your target, and their intent.

I would rather take a beating from a couple of overzealous cops than KILL one of them by accident.
But that's a false dilemma you've created there, because apparently, the man didn't know that they were cops. His house had been broken into earlier that week, and here they were again, as far as he was concerned, breaking in a second time. The first time they broke in, they didn't take anything---which is odd for a burglary, and if it were me, it would make me more scared for my life than if they had just stole my DVD player.

The guys had partially broken down his door and were entering his property through the lower door panel. Didn't seem to me like he was firing blindly; seems to me like he was afraid for his life because someone was breaking down his door when he had nothing to hide.

Furthermore, I'd only hope that the same standard of "ANY time you pull a trigger, you need to be CERTAIN of your target, and their intent" would be applied to cops as well. Apparently, however, it is not. The two stories are very similar, but the roles were reversed. One man may face lethal injection, the other one doesn't even get charged. But I'm sure Ryan, et al, would respond with something like, "he's got a badge, he can do no wrong". :rolleyes:

All of this
is eerily reminiscent. The militarization of our police forces is quite terrifying...and the stupid old police-state-excusing adage "you don't have anything to worry about if you're not doing anything wrong" certainly does not apply, given how many botched raids go down on the wrong address or on folks like this guy, who was "given up" to the cops by an informant who has nothing to lose and everything to gain from forkin over false information that has any chance of being true. Maybe this informant knew that the guy was a casual pot smoker, and thought, hey, maybe he grows too...can't hurt to try, right? It's not like the informant gets punished for giving over wrong info---he's just banking on maybe one or two of his "tips" coming up right, and getting a reduced sentence. It's a sick little system...
 

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Let's consider something else.

It is a trivial matter for you, or me, or anyone who wants to access your house and steal your stuff to spend a little time to find out when you are home, how many people live in your place and which door you use to enter and exit. This information allows a burglar to break in when there’s no one home, steal a bunch of your stuff and be out of the house 15 minutes later with several hundred in cash and prizes. All while not arousing enough suspicion for any neighbors to call the police, even if they notice something ‘weird’ about ‘that van that was parked in front of Joe’s house for a few hours a day every day last week’.

And you and I have no access to Social Security records (which tells me where you work), police background information (which tells me what cars you own, whether you get speeding tickets and a whole host of other background info) or various surveillance equipment (that van could have police cameras in it eliminating the need for someone to actually watch the house or go near the van for days at a time). We also are less able to do things like set up a fake 'gas leak', free TV contest or fire alarm to get people to exit their homes.

With the same information I’d use to break into your house, Law Enforcement could plan a raid on a suspected grow operation or drug dealer that would not necessitate the execution of a dynamic entry on an occupied dwelling. They could easily roll up on the suspect on his way home, even on his very block, and snatch him up before he’s anywhere near his empty home. They could even then use that opportunity to ask his permission to enter the house and search (which would make any evidence they found almost unassailable in court--- evidence found on a consented search is damn near cast iron). If he says no, THEN they could present the warrant, tell him they are going in and give him the opportunity to ‘make it easier on himself’ by owning up to what they are going to find anyway. tey could also take his keys and use that to open the door.

All that without firing a shot, driving a single armored car into a wall, breaking down a single door or throwing a single explosive device into someone's living room. They could also fire the carpenter they have on staff (for the purpose of repairing the doors that they bust in on 'wrong door warrants').

The idea that a grow operation is going to ‘destroy evidence’ which is why they need to execute a no knock warrant is foolish. The idea that they need a no knock for ‘officer safety’ is also often specious since they could snatch the guy off the street instead.

No—they execute no knock because it justifies the bloated SWAT related budget items, lets the boys have a little power trip and, ultimately, feeds the adrenaline junkies on the force their fix.
 

cubbies

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kornkob said:
With the same information I’d use to break into your house, Law Enforcement could plan a raid on a suspected grow operation or drug dealer that would not necessitate the execution of a dynamic entry on an occupied dwelling. They could easily roll up on the suspect on his way home, even on his very block, and snatch him up before he’s anywhere near his empty home. They could even then use that opportunity to ask his permission to enter the house and search (which would make any evidence they found almost unassailable in court--- evidence found on a consented search is damn near cast iron). If he says no, THEN they could present the warrant, tell him they are going in and give him the opportunity to ‘make it easier on himself’ by owning up to what they are going to find anyway. tey could also take his keys and use that to open the door.

All that without firing a shot, driving a single armored car into a wall, breaking down a single door or throwing a single explosive device into someone's living room. They could also fire the carpenter they have on staff (for the purpose of repairing the doors that they bust in on 'wrong door warrants').
That is precisely the point I was trying to make. This was completely unnecessary. There was no need for anyone to be harmed over this incident.
 

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That is some of the biggest bull **** I have ever seen, I would of done the same think if some scumbag was busting through my door with a ski mask. Its better to be judged by twelve than carried by six and those assbags could of came up and knicked on the door served the warrant and be done with it but there too quick to boot somebodys ****ing door in. I cant stand how doughnuts can do whatever they want and then balloon the truth to convict innocent men.
 
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Evan!

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This is a great read on the subject. FYI. It's scary how often this kind of thing happens these days. Absolutely terrifying. And it's even more scary that few seem to care.
 

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You know I think they could justify there actions if the man was a infamous felon or was suspected of running weapons or had a large rap sheet of weapon related convictions, But this disgusts me The man was growing tropical plants in his garage because its ****ing winter he had a japanese Maple that does sort of look like hemp but not much and when transplanted it in the spring the goddamn thing turns red, If anything they could of bashed down his garage door with doughnuts watching his front and back doors so when he came out the could subdue him. The Morons had to go all John Wayne on him for no reason and ended up getting one of there comrads shot and killed. They have no reguards for how a man that is only 100lbs would feel if some burley man in a ski mask was busting through there door in the middle of the night, He was trying to protect himself and his fiancee and I tip my hat to him I hope he gets aquited and then wins a fat lawsuit.
 

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My cooler head always prevails in the end but it is stories like these that make me seriously consider buying a bullet proof vest and some trauma plates.

It also makes me glad that every firearm I've ever purchased has been a private transaction.
 

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PeteOz77 said:
I would rather take a beating from a couple of overzealous cops than KILL one of them by accident.
The thing that bothers me is, if you look through the lists of incidents linked by that map, the reports often end up in that the suspect gets fired on for suspicion of holding a firearm. The one I read, the guy was covering his genitals with his shirt and they shot him. So I don't think it is safe to presume that you always won't be met with anything less than deadly force. I mean, it was stupid to shoot through the door but in a panic the guy probably wasn't thinking clearly. He was most likely angry and on edge from the prior incident.
 

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When has a guy that works hard, comes home, sparks a bowl with friends, watchs tv, and goes to sleep ever done any harm to society. Sure give him a citation, but bust down his door?

It is rediculous that weed is illegal. Harder drugs are understandable because junkies will kill for a fix.
 

cubbies

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cglkaptc said:
It is rediculous that weed is illegal.

It is ridiculous that it is illegal, you will get no argument from me. However, legal or not, we don't need to be sending in the SWAT team in the cover of darkness to arrest the "criminals".
 

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cglkaptc said:
It is rediculous that weed is illegal.
I find it even more ridiculous that Hemp, which does not contain anything but trace amounts of THC, is illegal. As a fiber, oil, etc. it is completely renewable...but yet for some reason remains illegal.
 
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