I want to brew a Double Diamond Clone for Natl Homebrew Day Need help with the recipe

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

Revvy

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Messages
41,296
Reaction score
3,702
Location
"Detroitish" Michigan
Next week @ NHB will be the first brew I've done since I had the surgery. And in honor of it I decided I wanted to do a clone of one of the first non-bmc/imported beers I ever had, Double Diamond Burton Ale.



Back in 1986, when I just turned 21 I found this and Guiness around my college campus. In fact my then gf, another classmate and I would get some and pull all nighters in the radio production class studio. (Some of us who worked on campus, and were also in college radio had master keys to a lot of the buildings, so we could get away with this.)

If you've never heard of it or never had it, it was a mild/pale ale brewed in Burton on Trent, from like 1876 until about 2003.

It's hard to remember the flavor, but some discussions online mention that it is somewhat sulphury (it is Burton on Trent water afterall.)

Some info from Shut up about Barclay Perkins.

Double Diamond Pale Ale

OG 1043.8
FG 1008.1
SRM 20

Now the problem is, I've got several recipes, including one from here, and I don't know which is closest. And it's also been more than 20 years probably since I've tasted DD. So I'm wondering if any of you have some insight.

Usually when I'm clonning I pull different recipes I overlap the similarities, the sort of look at the differences. But usually I have the original to taste and help refine. But I'm working kind of blind here.

So I'd appreciate any help.

This is Starfishe's recipe from on here back in 2009.

Double Diamond (Cats Meow post all grain)
Classification: pale ale, all-grain,
DoubleDiamondSource: Brian Glendenning([email protected]) Issue #581,2/14/91
My notes say that it was close in flavour but a bit light in both colour and body com-pared to the real thing.

Ingredients:•
9 pounds, Pale ale malt•
1 pound, crystal malt•
3/4 pound, Brown sugar
1/2 pound, malto-dextrins ( or 3/4# carapils)
2 ounces, Williamette (60m)
1/2 ounce, Williamette
Whitbred dry yeast

Procedure:
This is an infusion mash at 156 degrees.
Sparge, and add brown sugar, and malto-dextrins.
Bring to boil and add 2 ounces Williamette hops. After 60 minutes,
turnoff heat and steep 1/2 ounce Williamettehops for 10-15 minutes.
Specifics:•O.G.: 1.051•F.G.: 1.010
 
OP
Revvy

Revvy

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Messages
41,296
Reaction score
3,702
Location
"Detroitish" Michigan
Here's the other recipes I found.

Double Diamond Clone

From Clone Brews
Extra Specia/Strong Bitter (English Pale Ale)
Starting Gravity: 1.048 - 1.060
Finishing Gravity: 1.010 - 1.016
Bitterness: 30 - 50 IBU
Alcohol: 4.6 - 6.2%ABV
Recipe Specifics
Efficiency: 70%
Batch Size: 20.82 L
Boil Time: 60 min
Mash Temp: 152 °F

Yeast Cells Needed: 723 billion
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.014 - 1.016
Alcohol %ABV: 4.34 - 4.60
Calories/12 oz.: 173 - 174

Fermentables
Fermentable Potential °L kg %

Crystal 60L Malt (UK) 1.035 55 0.20 4.3
Pale Ale Malt (UK) 1.038 3 3.97 87.0
Pale Ale Malt (UK) 1.038 3 0.20 4.3
Amber Malt (UK) 1.037 30 0.09 1.9
Corn Sugar () 1.046 0 0.11 2.5

Hops Variety g Alpha Boil IBU

East Kent Goldings 35.44 5 60 28.8
East Kent Goldings 14.17 5 15 3.1
Challenger 14.17 7.5 15 4.6
Styrian Golding 14.17 5.25 0 0.0
Fuggle 14.17 4.75 0 0.0

Wyeast - 1968 London ESB Ale
Bitterness: 36.5 IBU (Rager)

BU:GU: 0.74
Weight: 4.56 kg
Starting Gravity: 1.049
SRM: 7.44
_______________

Submitted by: Brian Glendenning
Beer Style: pale ale, Double Diamond
Recipe Type: all-grain
Description:
My notes say that it was close in flavour but a bit light in both colour and body compared to the real thing.
Ingredients:

* 9 pounds, Pale ale malt
* 1 pound, crystal malt
* 3/4 pound, Brown sugar
* 1/2 pound, malto-dextrins ( or 3/4# cara pils)
* 2 ounces, Williamette (60m)
* 1/2 ounce, Williamette Whitbred dry yeast

OG: 1.051 FG: 1.010
Procedure:
This is an infusion mash at 156 degrees. Sparge, and add brown sugar, and malto-dextrins. Bring to boil and add 2 ounces Williamette hops. After 60 minutes, turn off heat and steep 1/2 ounce Williamette hops for 10-15 minutes.


_________________

Double Diamond Clone Aussie Homebrewer.com;
4.00 kg Pale Malt
850gmsAmber Malt
200gms Crystal
170gms Flaked Maize
170gms Toasted Malt
Mash in ,add 14.06 l @ 75 c
hold @ 67.8c for 60 mins
Mash out ,add 7.87l @ 91.7c
hold mash @ 75.6 c for 10 mins
drain
batch sparge 11.17 l @ 75.6 c
boil volume 27.10 l
estamate pre - boil 1.044 sg
90 min boil 45g Goldings EK
45 min 14g Challenger
45mins 14g Goldings EK
15 min 1 tsp Irish Moss
1 mins 14g Fuggles
1 mins 14g Strrian Goldings
estamate 1.053sg
estamate FG 1.014
 
OP
Revvy

Revvy

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Messages
41,296
Reaction score
3,702
Location
"Detroitish" Michigan
I also posted this the other day in a thread about Detroit water profiles. Asking if I should work with the water chemistry or even just use Burton Water Salts. But a couple water gurus said not to bother. But if it's necessary for the sulphuric nature, then I'm back on the fence about it.

Revvy said:
Here's the Burton Profile I found on Brewer's Lair.....

What it is:

This water profile has high total alkalinity and has moderately high permanent hardness. It is also known for containing moderate levels of sulfates. Representative ion levels for this profile are shown below.

Vital Statistics

Calcium (ppm): 294

Sulfates (ppm): 800

Magnesium (ppm): 24

Sodium (ppm): 24

Chloride (ppm): 36

Carbonates (ppm): 200

How it works:
For brewing purposes, the ion profile of the water is important for four main reasons:

* Mash pH - The six main ions affect the mash pH, which in turn contributes to enzyme effectiveness in converting the malt’s starches into maltose. Darker malts, and lighter Vienna and Munich malts, require greater temporary hardness for successful conversion. The reverse is true for light malts.
* Beer Flavor - These ions are generally not present in sufficient amounts to affect flavor, unless there is contamination.
* Hop Utilization – High water alkalinity can contribute to highly alkaline wort (pH above 5.7), which can exaggerate hop bitterness. Hop dosage may need to be reduced compared to that used with softer water.
* Yeast Nutrients – There is usually sufficient magnesium present to feed the yeast.

Treating your base water is largely needed only for all-grain brewing, since malt extract manufacturers account for the necessary water chemistry in making the extract for you. However, a large percentage of specialty grains in an extract brew may make water treatment necessary.

Dosage:


Use our Water Treatment calculator to compute the types and amounts of additives needed to modify your base water to mimic that of Burton-on-Trent. Know the starting ion levels present in your source water so that you do not overcompensate with additives.

Preparation:
To imitate the Burton-on-Trent water profile, we recommend that you begin with distilled water. Then, consider adding gypsum, Epsom salts, non-iodized canning salt, baking soda, calcium chloride, and chalk. Put these additives in the mash, not the plain base water, or some may not dissolve. Monitor the pH of the mash during these additions to ensure that it remains between 5 to 5.5, which is optimal for desired enzyme activity.
So at cap n cork we will have two options for water on site, the standard hose water, which would be basic Detroit water profile, and the water inside which is run through a filter/water softener. Or the third option would be to buy some distilled.
If anyone's interested, you can read the comments here- https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/detroit-water-analysis-thoughts-226200/
 

flyingwmelon

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2010
Messages
55
Reaction score
0
Location
Bristol, TN
Can't help with your questions but I'm glad to hear that you are going to be brewing again. Hope that your clone tastes as good as you remember the original.
 

Bithead

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
749
Reaction score
36
Location
Southern, NJ
I've also been reading Shut up about Barclay Perkins for a mild. Will probably brew Orfy's first because it's spoken of so highly. Since he seems to pluck so many recipes from the Whitbread Gravity Book the recipe presented there seems to be a closer interpretation of the original with the Double Diamond (Cats Meow post all grain) by Brian Glendenning being a looser interpretation. Brian does mention in his notes the lighter color. I'd be inclined to stay closer to the Barclay Perkins version with a mix of 6 row and 2 row for the base and use amber malt, crystal and sugar as stated.
Now for the water...guess you're considering building that from distilled?
 
OP
Revvy

Revvy

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Messages
41,296
Reaction score
3,702
Location
"Detroitish" Michigan
I've also been reading Shut up about Barclay Perkins for a mild. Will probably brew Orfy's first because it's spoken of so highly. Since he seems to pluck so many recipes from the Whitbread Gravity Book the recipe presented there seems to be a closer interpretation of the original with the Double Diamond (Cats Meow post all grain) by Brian Glendenning being a looser interpretation. Brian does mention in his notes the lighter color. I'd be inclined to stay closer to the Barclay Perkins version with a mix of 6 row and 2 row for the base and use amber malt, crystal and sugar as stated.
Now for the water...guess you're considering building that from distilled?
WHere's the barclay Perkins recipe, I looked last night and nothing jumped out. If you could post it I'd appreciate it. Or at least a link.

As to building the water, I have 3 options, the straight detroit tap water (the profile is in the link above) Filtered/softened tap water (the onsite brew water we usually use) Or bringing in some distilled.
 

MrAverage

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2010
Messages
126
Reaction score
7
Location
Shrewsbury MA
Grahm Wheeler's Double Diamond clone from "Brew Classic European Beers":


OG 1.053
Pale malt 89%
Crystal malt (around 120EBC) 6%
Flaked maize 5%
Target bittering hops to 35EBU
Late hopped with Goldings

Wheeler based his recipe on information obtained from Allied Breweries in the 1990's that bottled DD had an OG of 1.053

Edited to add:

More on DD OG over time from Shut Up About Barclay Perkins http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/03/ind-coope-beers-in-1950s.html . This info is from the Whitbread Gravity Book

Year Beer Package FG OG Color ABV
1948 Double Diamond Pale Ale bottled 1009.4 1045.2 18 B 4.48
1950 Double Diamond Pale Ale bottled 1012.3 1047.9 19.5 B 4.45
1955 Double Diamond Pale Ale bottled 1012.7 1048.5 19 4.47
1957 Double Diamond Pale Ale draught 1008.1 1043.8 20 4.65
1959 Double Diamond Pale Ale bottled 1011.9 1047.5 20 4.45

.
 

Bithead

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
749
Reaction score
36
Location
Southern, NJ
My mistake, sorry. Thought one of your recipes was from Barclay Perkins but I've been looking and can't find one.

I did find on this page they mention "It has the same dry quality of the other Burton I.P.A.s, perhaps a little softer and lighter in flavour than Bass or Worthington." Wonder if dry and soft qualities are due to the water or mash? How do you think you might mash this?

I ran the Detroit water through BreWater using Papazian's Burton-On-Trent as the target, which is different than the Brewer's Lair profile you posted. I've attached the results. Guess gypsum is most significant addition for the benefit it brings to pale ales.

View attachment BreWater 3.pdf
 
OP
Revvy

Revvy

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Messages
41,296
Reaction score
3,702
Location
"Detroitish" Michigan
You might want to check out this recipe for Truman's Pale ale - a brew that was supposed to compete with and be similar to DD. This might give you some direction when you formulate your clone attempt.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/04/lets-brew-wednesday-1953-ben-truman.html
That's awesome. I bet using Burton Ale Yeast would bring it in the ballpark. Brewer's caramel is hard to get (though I could just boil my own caramel). I wonder how Lyle's Golden would work.
 

StoutattheDevil

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2008
Messages
98
Reaction score
1
Alittle off topic but thanks for re-posting the Detroit water profile thread Revvy. Had been searching and getting distracted looking for if for a while. Good luck on this clone too id love to see how it turns out. One of my faves!!
 

MrAverage

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2010
Messages
126
Reaction score
7
Location
Shrewsbury MA
That's awesome. I bet using Burton Ale Yeast would bring it in the ballpark. Brewer's caramel is hard to get (though I could just boil my own caramel). I wonder how Lyle's Golden would work.
Yes, make your own caramel or maybe add a tiny amount of black patent malt instead for color.

As for the invert, here's a page that tells you how to make your own 2 different ways. Lyle's Golden won't have the same flavor or color (it's more like plain demerara sugar or maybe light brown sugar) as invert No 2. I made invert No 3 following his cooking directions and it came out very well - took a long time, though.

http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert

Edit: I just realized that the recipe calls for Invert No 1, not No 2. You can use plain old demerara (i.e. "Sugar in the Raw" ) or other cane sugar that has some molasses still in it. Lyle's too, although that might be more expensive (Lyle's Golden = Invert No 1...pretty much). Just don't use refined white sugar or corn sugar because you want to get the flavors from the less refined sugars. You can invert the sugar yourself, but I gather that it's not really necessary if you're trying to replicate Invert No 1. The raw demerara will do just fine
 

Judge

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
45
Reaction score
1
Location
San Antonio
I bet using Burton Ale Yeast would bring it in the ballpark.
I had always used Wyeast 1028 for my English style beers until I recently tried WhiteLabs 023.

WhiteLabs 023 Burton Ale (same as Wyeast 1275 Thames Valley) gives off a slightly sulphury aroma & taste. This has become my yeast-of-choice for English IPAs and ESBs.

I recently did a 10 gallon batch split into two carboys with the only difference being the yeast (1028 in one, 023 in the other). One of my British friends said the one using 023 tasted more like the beers he drank in central England.
 

PIGMAN

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
352
Reaction score
6
Location
E.MEADOW
I remember drinking DD and enjoying it very much. Glad your surgery went well, my brother-in-law is having valve replacement next week. Good luck with your clone, and thanks for all of the great posts, I've learned more from them than all the books combined.
 
OP
Revvy

Revvy

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Messages
41,296
Reaction score
3,702
Location
"Detroitish" Michigan
Well this isn't really a DD clone, but I think it's going to be nice. It's based on the Ben Truman recipe from Barclay Perkins, but his recipe was a little sketchy, some of his numbers didn't jibe. I took the hopping from one of the DD clones above. I also tweaked it a few times using the srms, gravity and Ibu's re-calculators in beersmith to get numbers I like.

I also dropped the invert and made it all the Lyle's Golden Syrup- I picked some up and tasted it tonight and it is delicious. I'm using a full 11 ounce bottle.

So I'm sure I'm Nowhere near DD but this seems like it's going to be tasty.

Double Diamond-esque Old Burton Ale
Brew Type: All Grain Date: 5/3/2011
Style: Extra Special/Strong Bitter (English Pale Ale)
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Volume: 7.00 gal Boil Time: 60 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Equipment: Brew Pot (6+gal) and Igloo/Gott Cooler (5 Gal)
Actual Efficiency: 8.94 %


Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
6 lbs 10 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 63.37 %
1 lbs 10.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 15.83 %
1 lbs 2 oz Mild Malt (4.0 SRM) Grain 10.64 %
9.0 oz Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM) Grain 5.37 %
0.53 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (60 min) Hops 11.7 IBU
0.53 oz Goldings, East Kent [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 10.4 IBU
0.27 oz Goldings, East Kent [4.80 %] (45 min) Hops 4.8 IBU
0.27 oz Challenger [7.50 %] (45 min) Hops 7.5 IBU
1.00 oz Fuggles [4.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
11.0 oz Lyle's Golden Syrup (8.0 SRM) Sugar 4.79 %

1 Pkgs Burton Ale (White Labs #WLP023) [Starter] Yeast-Ale

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.059 SG (1.048-1.060 SG)
Measured Original Gravity:
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.015 SG (1.010-1.016 SG)
Measured Final Gravity:
Estimated Color: 15.7 SRM (6.0-18.0 SRM)
Bitterness: 34.4 IBU (30.0-50.0 IBU) Alpha Acid Units: 9.7 AAU
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 5.46 % (4.60-6.20 %)


Mash Profile Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Mash Tun Weight: 4.00 lb
Mash Grain Weight: 9.93 lb Mash PH: 5.4 PH
Grain Temperature: 72.0 F Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F
Sparge Water: 5.34 gal Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE

Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Mash In Add 12.41 qt of water at 169.6 F 154.0 F 60 min

* I'm using Domestic 2-row since I have it on hand, It has according to Beersmith 2 srms as opposed to 3, if you choose to use English and want the SRMs to match this, you'll use less of the English. You can easily do it in BS.
 

MrAverage

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2010
Messages
126
Reaction score
7
Location
Shrewsbury MA
Looks pretty good.

I'm no expert so take this with a large grain of salt:

You might want to consider boosting the IBU's a bit to balance the big malt and caramel flavors. Lyle's is also said to give a bit of a toffee flavor so you're going to have a lot of different sweet-ish flavors to work with/against. Your BU-GU ratio is about 58...lower than most of the traditional British pale ale and bitter recipes I've encountered. They tend to be in the 66 - 78 range. As an example, a 1921 Pale Ale from Barclay Perkins with an OG of 1.059 had 44.6 IBU's...for an BU-GU ratio of about 76.....

Then again, if you're intent is to brew something along the lines of a real "Burton Ale" in the original meaning of the term, then you're probably right on. It's just not going to be very much like DD...

Anyway, as I said, I'm no expert and I don't know your particular taste preferences so who the heck am I to tell you what to do, right? Just something to consider....

(i'll shut up now...)

Be sure to let us know how it turns out!
 

balto charlie

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
885
Reaction score
44
Location
Md
That's awesome. I bet using Burton Ale Yeast would bring it in the ballpark. Brewer's caramel is hard to get (though I could just boil my own caramel). I wonder how Lyle's Golden would work.
So did this ever go anywhere?? I remember the DD. Enjoyed it. It would be nice to brew. I have some Burtons ale Yeast looking to munch some sugars. Let us know if you have progressed with this. Thanks, Charlie.
 

patto1ro

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
277
Reaction score
51
I also posted this the other day in a thread about Detroit water profiles. Asking if I should work with the water chemistry or even just use Burton Water Salts. But a couple water gurus said not to bother. But if it's necessary for the sulphuric nature, then I'm back on the fence about it.
That looks like the profile of Bass's water. Allsopp (which is where Double Diamond was brewed) had less sulphurous water.

This is the composition of Allsopp's brewing water (in ppm):

Chloride of sodium 144
Sulphate of potash 109
Sulphate of lime 270
Sulphate of magnesia 142
Carbonate of lime 221
Carbonate of magnesia 24
Carbonate of iron protoxide 8.5
Silica 11

The amount of sulphate of lime (gypsum) in Bass's brewing water was about three times as much.
 
Top