I need all grain help

[HomeBrewKingPin]

Despite my username i have been home brewing less that a year and have had
extract success with a variety of kits.

I tried an all grain recipe for a pale ale biab and had gushers and beer that was more than vile undrinkable.(this one smelled sketchy even out of the airlock.)

then i did a extract based pale ale and it was the best beer i have ever made.

so i went for the all grain again same recipe and had gushers and beer that was more than vile undrinkable.(this one smelled good even on bottling day)

i wanted to start with a small batch size and simple recipe.
4.5 gallon biab recipe
8 lbs pale malt

strike water 161
mash at 152 for 60 min in the pot with a towel around it.
lost a few degrees and turned the burner on at some point.
Boil
.5 cascade 60min
.5 cascade 10 min
safale us 05
thats it.

i wash everything and starsan.
both had active fermentation
ballpark numbers for OG 1.045 FG 1.012

so 6 extract batches no off flavors or infections.
2 biab all grain attempts and gushers.

any ideas?
I am thinking a very poor conversion left sugars and enzymes that the yeast
didnt want but the beasties or bacteria did.
i am using a stainless steel kitchen thermometer that we had for years to check mash temps and maybe its way off?

 

[LesIsMore]

It's funny you mention the thermometer. I was using a meat thermometer until I realized that it was reading 8 degrees lower at higher temps. So when I was mashing at say 152, I was really at 160. My final gravities always seemed to be higher than I was expecting. I did have two batches that were gushers, but none since I switched thermometers. I can't confirm that was the issue, but it wouldn't hurt to check your thermometer against another one to confirm it's accurate.
What FG were you expecting for your gushers? If they tasted undrinkable, than it could be from an infection though.

 

[HomeBrewKingPin]

I was expecting 1.015 to 1.010 so the FG 's were seemed good.

they were beyond bad.
none of the off flavors i have read about cover it one sip
and you want to vomit.

i am going to invest in a thermometer for sure.

 

[LesIsMore]

If the FG's seemed okay and they tasted that bad, it seems like an infection. I'm not sure why it would only happen to your all grain batches. The gushers that I had were actually drinkable. What are you using as a cleaner by the way?

 

[speeddemon190]

If the FG's seemed okay and they tasted that bad, it seems like an infection. I'm not sure why it would only happen to your all grain batches. The gushers that I had were actually drinkable. What are you using as a cleaner by the way?

I agree sounds like an infection. how are you cooling the wort and what are you sanitzing with?

 

[HomeBrewKingPin]

i chill the kettle with an ice bath the first batch was in march and i packed snow around the (outside) of the kettle after my ice melted.

so after the first batch infection i thought maybe i got some snow melt on the lid or in the kettle but i was careful.

and i use starsan at 1 oz for 5 gallons for every batch

 

[speeddemon190]

i chill the kettle with an ice bath the first batch was in march and i packed snow around the (outside) of the kettle after my ice melted.

so after the first batch infection i thought maybe i got some snow melt on the lid or in the kettle but i was careful.

and i use starsan at 1 oz for 5 gallons for every batch

If you bottle how does it taste after fermentation but before you bottle?

 

[LesIsMore]

i chill the kettle with an ice bath the first batch was in march and i packed snow around the (outside) of the kettle after my ice melted.

so after the first batch infection i thought maybe i got some snow melt on the lid or in the kettle but i was careful.

and i use starsan at 1 oz for 5 gallons for every batch

Do you use PBW before starsan? Are you cooling a full 5 gallons with ice? Could it be that it's sitting at an ideal temperature for bugs for too long of a time?

 

[Beernik]

Can you describe the off flavor?

Is it sour, bitter, vomity, rancid, medicinal....

 

[bzwyatt]

Not sure about infection. I've had a few that turned out overcarbed. They also tasted ok. They were from yeast I'd reused.

But with a thermometer, calibrate it with freezing/boiling water. Don't compare it to another thermometer.

 

[HomeBrewKingPin]

If you bottle how does it taste after fermentation but before you bottle?

the first batch was not good on bottling day. (but not vomit)

the second batch tasted like beer.

 

[HomeBrewKingPin]

If the FG's seemed okay and they tasted that bad, it seems like an infection. I'm not sure why it would only happen to your all grain batches. The gushers that I had were actually drinkable. What are you using as a cleaner by the way?

for cleaner just dish detergent on the fermenting buckets.
i have used oxy-clean on the tubes.

 

[HomeBrewKingPin]

Can you describe the off flavor?

Is it sour, bitter, vomity, rancid, medicinal....

the best way to describe the flavor was bitter vomitish and worse.

 

[speeddemon190]

the first batch was not good on bottling day. (but not vomit)

the second batch tasted like beer.

well that narrows it down a little (kinda) how long does it take you to cool the wort down, are you stirring? possibly splashing? are you sanitizing everything that it will touch after being boiled....spoons, bucket/carboy, lids, bungs, air locks (all pieces) hydrometers, thermometers? maybe there is something you missed in the cleaning process. also where do you keep all of this stuff when not using it? I used keep all my stuff in my basement but have noticed mold started on my tubing so i moved everything to the main level of my house to avoid that. Are you topping off with water at all? if so are you using water from the tap or bottled spring water?

 

[Beernik]

the best way to describe the flavor was bitter vomitish and worse.

Vomit and gushers definitely sounds like infection. Vomity could also be DMS. I've head it described as rancid cooked cabbage.

Astringent is like sucking on a black tea bag, and would taste like a nasty bitter. That could show up from too hot of mash temps.

If it is infection, I don't know why it would only be AG batches unless somehow something that contacted the grain pre-boil is contacting the wort post-boil. That would give you a pedio and/or lacto infection and those can taste vomity / ropy.

Simple infection sources to check:
1) are bottles visibly clean
2) unscrew the tip of your bottling wand and make sure it is clean
3) replace siphon tubes
4) make sure siphons are visibly clean
5) make sure bottling spigot is clean
6) scratches on fermenters and bottling bucket.

 

[HomeBrewKingPin]

well that narrows it down a little (kinda) how long does it take you to cool the wort down, are you stirring? possibly splashing? are you sanitizing everything that it will touch after being boiled....spoons, bucket/carboy, lids, bungs, air locks (all pieces) hydrometers, thermometers? maybe there is something you missed in the cleaning process. also where do you keep all of this stuff when not using it? I used keep all my stuff in my basement but have noticed mold started on my tubing so i moved everything to the main level of my house to avoid that. Are you topping off with water at all? if so are you using water from the tap or bottled spring water?

it takes a while to cool the wort 30min + i keep the lid on
the only stir or shake is when i aerate before pitching the yeast.
and i do top off to correct gravity with tap.
i replaced my autosiphon and tube just before the second batch.

the coincidence is too big for me to think that its not all grain related but after the boil wort should be work more or less.

 

[Beernik]

Has your top off water been boiled or is it straight from the tap? Because that may be your problem. You could be getting infection or chlorine problems from tap water that hasn't been boiled.

If you don't want to pre-boil the top off water, switch to a bottled water.

 

[LesIsMore]

for cleaner just dish detergent on the fermenting buckets.
i have used oxy-clean on the tubes.

It still doesn't explain why just your all grain batches were ruined, but I would ditch the detergent and pick up some PBW to clean with.

 

[HomeBrewKingPin]

Vomit and gushers definitely sounds like infection. Vomity could also be DMS. I've head it described as rancid cooked cabbage.

Astringent is like sucking on a black tea bag, and would taste like a nasty bitter. That could show up from too hot of mash temps.

If it is infection, I don't know why it would only be AG batches unless somehow something that contacted the grain pre-boil is contacting the wort post-boil. That would give you a pedio and/or lacto infection and those can taste vomity / ropy.

Simple infection sources to check:
1) are bottles visibly clean
2) unscrew the tip of your bottling wand and make sure it is clean
3) replace siphon tubes
4) make sure siphons are visibly clean
5) make sure bottling spigot is clean
6) scratches on fermenters and bottling bucket.

i spend allot of time cleaning everything
inside the tubes and siphon and wand are the most difficult.
i am going to replace the tubing more often it is kinda cheap.

the taste was so bad i wondered it i grabbed a bag of easy clean instead of priming sugar.

yes, infection but only on the all grain batches is too big of a coincidence for me.

the batch in between the 2 was the best i have made and maybe better than any craft beer i have bought.

 

[HomeBrewKingPin]

Has your top off water been boiled or is it straight from the tap? Because that may be your problem. You could be getting infection or chlorine problems from tap water that hasn't been boiled.

If you don't want to pre-boil the top off water, switch to a bottled water.

i have not boiled the water i use to top off.
i am going to start.

 

[ncbrewer]

Maybe grain dust got in post boil. That could happen from dust getting on your clothes, and then transferring into the wort during cooling or pitching.

 

[speeddemon190]

it takes a while to cool the wort 30min + i keep the lid on
the only stir or shake is when i aerate before pitching the yeast.
and i do top off to correct gravity with tap.
i replaced my autosiphon and tube just before the second batch.

the coincidence is too big for me to think that its not all grain related but after the boil wort should be work more or less.

Try not to keep the lid on while cooling your wort down. Same as while your boiling you dont want the lid on.
A) if there is any DMS that was not boiled off, the lid will collect it in the steam and it will drop back into the wort. (i dont think DMS would cause the nasty taste as i believe it tastes like cooked corn, but just another possibility to eliminate)

b) it holds in the heat making it take longer to cool the wort.

easiest way is an ice bath with about 1/2 water 1/2 ice and slowly gently stir the wort (avoid splashing or any bubbling/frothing until wort gets down to pitching temps)

I find it kinda suspicious that your first batch tasted horrible between fermentation and bottling and the second batch tasted fine until after bottling...

 

[speeddemon190]

Maybe grain dust got in post boil. That could happen from dust getting on your clothes, and then transferring into the wort during cooling or pitching.

kinda rare to get grain dust in both times....if that would be the case...at least its consistent lol

 

[ncbrewer]

kinda rare to get grain dust in both times....if that would be the case...at least its consistent lol

I brought it up because I got what I think is an infection with my first all-grain batch, and like the OP, I thought it was way too much of a coincidence not to be connected to the all-grain process. Grain dust is the only thing that seemed to make sense. After all, when mashing in, dust is in the air and gets on your clothes. Seems like it could come off and drift into the wort after the boil. I was already changing my clothes after mashing in, but am planning to take extra precautions for the next batch. The OP might want to consider doing the same.

 

[bzwyatt]

Dish soap can leave a residue that can affect flavor too.

 

[MindenMan]

I had two batches go gushers, I'm quite sure I know how it happened, all of my buckets have spouts/valves, and I believed my rinsing everything out was good enough, if I followed it up with an iodine wash. But, I didn't pull the valve apart until it was too late, and saw there was dried wort down in the threads.

 

[LesIsMore]

I had two batches go gushers, I'm quite sure I know how it happened, all of my buckets have spouts/valves, and I believed my rinsing everything out was good enough, if I followed it up with an iodine wash. But, I didn't pull the valve apart until it was too late, and saw there was dried wort down in the threads.

That's the exact problem I had when starting out. Everything needs to come apart to really be cleaned/sanitized.

 

[HomeBrewKingPin]

I bought some PBW and will be watching the grain dust for my all grain batches from now on.
I have an extract Nut brown ale 11 days in the smell out of the airlock is great.
Thanks again.

 

[LesIsMore]

Let us know how it turns out.

 

[govner1]

Despite my username i have been home brewing less that a year and have had

extract success with a variety of kits.



I tried an all grain recipe for a pale ale biab and had gushers and beer that was more than vile undrinkable.(this one smelled sketchy even out of the airlock.)



then i did a extract based pale ale and it was the best beer i have ever made.



so i went for the all grain again same recipe and had gushers and beer that was more than vile undrinkable.(this one smelled good even on bottling day)



i wanted to start with a small batch size and simple recipe.

4.5 gallon biab recipe

8 lbs pale malt



strike water 161

mash at 152 for 60 min in the pot with a towel around it.

lost a few degrees and turned the burner on at some point.

Boil

.5 cascade 60min

.5 cascade 10 min

safale us 05

thats it.



i wash everything and starsan.

both had active fermentation

ballpark numbers for OG 1.045 FG 1.012



so 6 extract batches no off flavors or infections.

2 biab all grain attempts and gushers.



any ideas?

I am thinking a very poor conversion left sugars and enzymes that the yeast

didnt want but the beasties or bacteria did.

i am using a stainless steel kitchen thermometer that we had for years to check mash temps and maybe its way off?

Why are your OF & FG numbers "ballpark"? Did you use a refractometer & hydrometer. I also agree that you need a reliable thermometer & as importantly you need a way to control your temps.
So I agree that you need a rua me


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