I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but...

[kerklein2]

I wanted to discuss the merits of connecting a spa panel GFI to a 3-wire dryer outlet vs. having a 4-wire outlet installed. I know that the connection to the 3-wire outlet is safe, but I've had an electrician quote $275 to add a new breaker and line and don't really know if it's worth it. Seems pretty damn high to me, so maybe a different electrician might quote lower, but the question remains.

Use the 3-wire, or have an electrician add a new circuit?

P.S.
The one other variable is that he'd put the new outlet outside, so I wouldn't have to run my cable through a window or door for brew day.

 

[kerklein2]

Anyone?

 

[TJTHEBEST]

its a dead horse... which means its already been beaten to death.. do a search

 

[kerklein2]

Clearly I've done a search and read a lot about it. Thanks for being so friendly.

Just wanted some discussion about my specific situation.

 

[grandequeso]

run a straight 240 volt system using the 3 wire system you already have. plug your pumps into a wall outlet. everything properly grounded. no problem.

 

[kerklein2]

Wait, why would I run my pumps on a wall outlet? Should be fine pulling 120V from the 3-wire, yes?

Also, my control panel is already done, and I don't want to re-wire it if I don't have to.

 

[grandequeso]

The problem you have with your dryer circuit is that you are short one conductor (wire) by running your pumps are the only thing that actually needs a neutral conductor. your pid and contactors (if you used 240v contactors) don't require a neutral conductor... Problem solved

 

[passedpawn]

Yes you can pull the 120V pumps from one leg of the 240.

Yes, the whole thing will work fine off 240V 3 wire. Ground all exposed metal to a a ground wire that bypasses the spa panel, connecting to the neutral before it reaches the panel. So, H-H-N to the spa panel, then use 4-wire H-H-N-G to the control box. 240V devices get wired H-H, 120V devices get wired H-N, and all exposed metal is tied to G. This way the GFCI will trip.

This is not ideal because you've got a ground wire tied to a neutral which is carrying current (the return from the 120V devices). But it will all work fine and might still save your life. If the neutral is loose going to the panel, and you get a live short in the pot, you might have a problem (besides the pumps not working), but you'll be the first to know.

Boy I'll bet I'll pay for responding to this thread. Damn the torpedos!

 

[kerklein2]

I'm not following you completely, but I understand I only have 3-wires with no ground. However, following P-Js diagram to hook up a GFI spa panel to a 3-wire outlet, it should work correctly, yes? That was my understanding.

The control panel is done I've been using it for a while. I already own the spa panel. Minimizing the changes is important to me.

 

[passedpawn]

I'm not following you completely, but I understand I only have 3-wires with no ground. However, following P-Js diagram to hook up a GFI spa panel to a 3-wire outlet, it should work correctly, yes? That was my understanding.

The control panel is done I've been using it for a while. I already own the spa panel. Minimizing the changes is important to me.

I've never looked at a P-J drawing. Can't help you there. I built my two panels well before he was a member here.

If you're not comfortable with it, just get a electrician buddy to help you.

 

[kerklein2]

Sorry, that was in response to grandqueso.

What you said it was I understood to be the case. 3-wire outlet to 4-wire GFI and all will work well.

My question though, since this is "not ideal", is if it's worth it to have the 4-wire outlet installed (For $275, or maybe less with a different electrician).

 

[passedpawn]

Sorry, that was in response to grandqueso.

What you said it was I understood to be the case. 3-wire outlet to 4-wire GFI and all will work well.

My question though, since this is "not ideal", is if it's worth it to have the 4-wire outlet installed (For $275, or maybe less with a different electrician).

Are you talking to me? This button

makes it unambiguous.

 

[kerklein2]

Are you talking to me? This button

makes it unambiguous.

Yes I was.

 

[passedpawn]

Yes I was.

Heh. Well, it's up to you what you'll do to make things perfect. You could easily convert the 3-wire to a 4 wire just by pulling a nearby ground wire into the junction box and swapping the connector. That's what I would do long before I'd pay someone else.

Or pay them.

Or run the box as I described. I think it's safe to do so, just not ideal. There are failure modes that are unlikely, but the consequences are severe (to say the least). That's referred to as risk, and I can't tell you how much to take.

If the idea of spending $275 now isn't appealing, just build off the 3-prong and fix it later.

 

[grandequeso]

Im not advocating bonding the spa panel and pulling a ground out of no where . Im saying create a situation where you only need two hots and a ground.. No neutral load off of your three wire circuit.

 

[kerklein2]

Heh. Well, it's up to you what you'll do to make things perfect. You could easily convert the 3-wire to a 4 wire just by pulling a nearby ground wire into the junction box and swapping the connector. That's what I would do long before I'd pay someone else.

Or pay them.

Or run the box as I described. I think it's safe to do so, just not ideal. There are failure modes that are unlikely, but the consequences are severe (to say the least). That's referred to as risk, and I can't tell you how much to take.

If the idea of spending $275 now isn't appealing, just build off the 3-prong and fix it later.

How would you go about pulling a nearby ground wire?

 

[passedpawn]

How would you go about pulling a nearby ground wire?

Every outlet in your house has a ground wire in it. Wire nuts and some ingenuity should be enough to get the wire from one of those boxes to your dryer junction box. I'd get in my attic, drill a hole in the top plate of the wall with a wood bit and run the wire down to the box. I know not everyone wants to do that.

if there's a 120V outlet between the same wall studs, it's easy to run the ground up/down in the wall. If not, you can cut a section of drywall out and pull it through the studs. Lots of ways to skin the cat.

I'm no electrician, so I'm just marking time here until the real guys come in here and give me hell and take over.

 

[kerklein2]

Every outlet in your house has a ground wire in it. Wire nuts and some ingenuity should be enough to get the wire from one of those boxes to your dryer junction box. I'd get in my attic, drill a hole in the top plate of the wall with a wood bit and run the wire down to the box. I know not everyone wants to do that.

if there's a 120V outlet between the same wall studs, it's easy to run the ground up/down in the wall. If not, you can cut a section of drywall out and pull it through the studs. Lots of ways to skin the cat.

I'm no electrician, so I'm just marking time here until the real guys come in here and give me hell and take over.

Hmm. The dryer outlet is right next to the breaker panel, and the house is pier+beam. I bet I could crawl under the house and do something pretty easily. It's a rent house, so I'd prefer to avoid drilling and cutting as much as possible.

 

[grandequeso]

If you cut in a "old work" cut in box just below your panel, you could just add a new 4 wire receptacle as a dedicated circuit. It would be flush mounted to the wall. I seriously doubt the landowner would know that it wasn't always there. just do neat work and be sure to use a proper romex connector when you bring the wire into the panel. It takes me about 20 mins to add an outlet below a panel like that as long as its not a wood lath wall.

 

[kerklein2]

If you cut in a "old work" cut in box just below your panel, you could just add a new 4 wire receptacle as a dedicated circuit. It would be flush mounted to the wall. I seriously doubt the landowner would know that it wasn't always there. just do neat work and be sure to use a proper romex connector when you bring the wire into the panel. It takes me about 20 mins to add an outlet below a panel like that as long as its not a wood lath wall.

Unfortunately, the panel is full, so I can't add a whole new circuit.

 

[grandequeso]

No big deal. Delete the existing dryer outlet remove the wires from their breaker& cap them off. install new 4 wire outlet on the same breaker. Blank off/ remove old dryer outlet. buy a new 4 wire dryer cord for your dryer. think of it as upgrading for your landlord.