I hate #!@#&*( Contractors

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
b-boy

b-boy

16%er
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
4,833
Reaction score
1,476
Location
The Frozen Tundra
:mad: Begin Rant.....

I'm in the process of moving into a new home. I'm living in 2 places right now. I bought a really old house and I'm trying to take care of some obvious issues with the house before I move in. I'm replacing the roof, replacing the boiler, re-finishing the hardwood floors, and redoing the kitchen (plumbing). I'm dealing with 4 contractors.

I started this process about 2 months ago, with the assumption that everything would be ready when I move in in 2 weeks. I'm not even close.

I apologize in advance if I offend any contractors on the site. I'm sure there are many thoughtful, thorough, honest, business-like contractors out there.

HOWEVER - I haven't worked with any yet!

I am on the contractor merry-go-round. Some of them have my money and have seemingly disappeared. Others keep promising me they will be there tomorrow. Others just don't seem to give a rat's ass about me as a customer.

Here are my issues:
  • Not showing up for estimates. I have to call ~6 people to guarantee 2 will show up. It really annoys me when I have take off work to meet with them and they never show.
  • Showing up and giving me other-worldly estimates (like 40K for a 10K roof). Then getting pissed at me when I call you out. Honestly, we both know this is not a 40K job. Are you just working the odds and hoping someone is stupid enough to fall for this? I'm not a little old lady living in a house full of cats. I know what a new roof costs.
  • Showing up, giving me an estimate, then disappearing from the face of the earth. OK - you took the trouble to come out and give me a good estimate. I'm interested. Now you won't return my phone calls. I feel like a bride that got left at the alter. I'm guessing you re-thought your estimate and you under-bid. Fine, if you don't want to do the work just say so. That way I'm not waiting around for 3 weeks.
  • Not showing up to do the job on the day you said you would. Hey - things happen. I get it. How about a phone call so I'm not sitting in my living room using one of my precious vacation days?
  • Not calling when you won't be showing up. (See above)
  • Not returning any of my phone calls asking why you didn't show up. I'm guessing you have my number blocked on your cell phone. (See above)
  • Not apologizing when I finally track you down and ask you why you didn't show up. I called you from my wife's number and you carelessly picked up the phone - GOTCHA! (See above)
  • Rescheduling, then not showing up again. Freakin unbelievable! (See above)
  • Not finishing the work you started. Right now I have a new roof that leaks, 2 bay windows that still have the old roof on them, and 1/2 a gutter system that pours water all over my wife's flower beds when it rains. It's been over 2 weeks (and at least 10 unanswered phone calls). Unfortunately I was stupid enough to pay you the full amount because you were 95% done with the 1-day job and needed to 'pay your guys'.
  • Not fixing the crappy work you completed. I'm still waiting for you to come back and address all the issues. (See above)

Based on my experience, I've come to the conclusion that most contractors behave this way. I don't get it. Is it that much harder to provide basic customer service? How do you stay in business when you treat customers this way?

If you screw me over, I will bad mouth you to the ends of the earth. If I'm happy, I will refer you to all my friends.

So far the roofing guy has lost 2 additional jobs based on my feedback. He doesn't even realize he lost them.

This is the main reason I DIY whenever I can.

:mad:End Rant.....
 
I think most contractors operate as follows:

1. Lowball bid
2. Accept Checks
3. ???
4. Profit
 
1.) Never pay a contractor up front. You can break off a chunk when materials deliver, but never pay up front.
2.) Squeaky wheel gets the grease. Call their cell, office, and even their grandmother if you can find her.
3.) For the ones who do have your money, look into the lien process.
4.) Whatever the bid, assume it will take twice as long and cost 3 times as much. Write early completion bonuses into contracts or liquidated damages for not meeting an agreed upon deadline.
 
I'll get this all worked out one way or another. I'm a persistent SOB. I'll hit every review site and call every complaint line I can find until it gets taken care of. Small Claims court is not out of scope either. They don't know who they're messing with. I will become obsessed.

I usually won't pay up front. I did pay 1 guy a deposit for the boiler. The other guy I paid at the end of the day because I had to go somewhere. He assured me they'd be done in another hour. That was 2 weeks ago. They must have peeled out of the driveway 2 minutes after I left.

The flooring guy keeps canceling and rescheduling every 2 weeks. He only cancels when I call him to ask him if he'll be there to do the job. I'd like to hire someone else, but it will probably just be the same dance. He's the guy that's screwing me up. I can't move in until the floors are done.

I just don't understand how these guys stay in business.
 
That sucks man. I've dealt with those people before. The ones that treat you like you are stupid really get to me. Or the ones that take advantage of my kind natured wife while I'm away and over charge the living hell out of her, and laugh about how sly they were.. jerks.

Hope you get it worked out. There are some good contractors and handymen out there. I don't know any in NY to recommend. But my FIL is a Foreman in Buffalo... might maybe know some people.
 
It seems to me that no one is responsible or cares anymore. I feel your pain but in smaller doses.
I don't sit quietly tough. I had a small contractor redo my outdoor shed (12" x 10") and though we agreed on 50% down and the balance on completion, he still begs for money and I continue to say no. I still owe him money and he still hasn't finished.
I had a warranty on a washing machine from Sears. Over 6 weeks time, they missed appointment completely with no phone call at all. Sent me parts that were broken, wrong or missing. Lied about tons of things. After 6 weeks, I fought for and got $660 towards a new washer.
Hobie don't play dat wit me!
 
The deposit on the boiler, do you know where he was getting it from?

If yes, call the supplier and verify that he has paid the deposit to the supply house.
 
GilaMinumBeer said:
The deposit on the boiler, do you know where he was getting it from?

If yes, call the supplier and verify that he has paid the deposit to the supply house.
Click to expand...

Of all the guys I'm dealing with, the boiler guy seems to be the most professional and reliable.

It's funny, I got other estimates for the exact same job. Some were as high as 11K. These guys all showed up with high-end trucks, zero % financing packages, and powerpoint presentations on their IPADs.

This guy's doing it for a little over 3K. He's a younger guy, drives a regular pickup, and was far from a slick salesman. He seems like he knows what he's doing, and I got some good references. Of course, I'm still waiting for the work to get done, so we'll see.
 
Maybe play their game along with them.

If a guy promises to be there and doesn't show, keep hounding him like you do. But start calling other guys too. So then the next time, it's two guys scheduled to show up and if neither of them do, then call in a third guy. At some point, someone will want your business bad enough and actually show up to do the work. And then the other contractors will get pissed because you didn't call them to tell them you don't need them anymore. :(

Screw em. Gotta work to get paid. If they don't want your money, someone else does. And keep a long memory of these guys. Next time you need something done, call them up and get an estimate and harass them into giving you a lower offer because they wasted your time before. Then don't give them the work. Waste their time as much as they wasted yours.
 
After this round of work, I'm done for a a while. I'll finish everything inside myself.

However, I'm planning on putting up an outbuilding this Spring. It will require a builder, a concrete guy, a plumber, and an electrician. I'm breaking out in hives just thinking about it.
 
I'm having a covered porch built on the front of my house. Work started about a month after the projected completion date, and there have been a couple weeks with no work done at all.
I'm not too bothered by this because it's not like a kitchen or bath, that is a functional part of the house. I'm also thinking that maybe the guy underpriced the project a bit. He was here yesterday and told my husband that everything should be finished by the end of next week. We'll see.
 
Good luck!

The neighbors directly behind me had a covered porch added to the back of their house. It's been almost 2 years and it's not done yet. The guy never came back to finish the siding and detail moulding. Luckily it's under the roof and out of the weather. They have a blue tarp covering the unfinished part of the build. It looks nice otherwise.
 
I went through this for smaller projects.

First, the contractors advertise like crazy, so I called four of them for a bid.

NONE of them showed up. One did call, and say he had a flat tire, and he'd be there "tomorrow". That was in May 2014, and he never has called or shown up!

The one guy that redid my main floor bathroom as a single guy, working alone, and I loved him. He was great. He moved away, but before he did I learned that many of my friends who tried to hire him got treated poorly- he didn't show up, he bid too high, etc, after I recommended him.

So, two years ago (see the four guys who never showed up), I tried a fifth guy I heard about. I heard he was a drinker who was not that dependable, but I hate rumors, and I really wanted a closed-in porch built, so I called him in about November since I wanted the work done in the spring. He said he'd come over. I called him about three weeks later, and he said he was at the dentist, and I never heard from him again. I called again in March, for one last try, and he came out and I really liked him.

I know you shouldn't pay a contractor because you like him- but I got a positive vibe from him, and my dog took right too him.

Anyway, he returned a written bid via the mail that we thought was great and Bob mailed a check.

About two weeks later, he came up to our house with three guys, a very professional truck and trailer, and built the porch. As they progressed, he asked me "Would you like a second door, about right here?" and told me why he would do that. I watched them work, and he listened to me, and we made some changes during the work.

After the job was finished, we paid him the remainder and a little more for the additional add-ons (the second door, extending the roof line, etc).

The moral of that story?

There isn't one. I got lucky, because the guy didn't even call me back the first two times. But he turned out to be reliable, professional, and we definitely were pleased with the results and the price.
 
Here's a couple of thoughts based on my limited experience with contractors…

If you are dealing with 4 contractors, consider hiring a general contractor to oversee them. The sub-contractors will be more responsive to a general because, if they impress him, they may get more work on the general contractors next project(s). The general may have a handful of subs that he already has a relationship with that he can put to work. You will then only have one guy to "kick in the shins" (and pay) to get the work done.

It sounds like you are past the point of hiring a general, but food for thought.

It may be more expensive, but you also may get the job done faster with a lot less hassle on your part.

I have had experience with general contractors that didn't understand big words such as "level" and "plumb", so obviously do you homework picking a general…

Good luck with the rest of your project!
 
I don't get any of this either. I am superintendent for a general contractor in Chicago (commercial work), but have done a lot residential side work. And when I was out of work due to the crappy economy, I worked for myself (about 4 years). I was always amazed at the stories that I heard from the people that I worked for. The numerous calls that they made, the contractors that never showed up, etc. - even when the economy sucked! You would think that any contractor would have been putting on their best show to get work! I was able to stay busy most of the time I was off, and although life wasn't glamorous, we were able to bump along until I was able to get back to full time work. I did numerous kitchens, bathrooms, decks a porch or two and tons of misc. stuff. I always had a clear payment schedule for people, including some money up front for me to get started. I never had anyone balk at that, and never had a money dispute with a client. If anything, I usually did extra and did not charge for it, unless it was a major change. I should say that the vast majority of my work was for people that were directly referred to me by a friend or someone that I had already done work for, so this usually paved the way for any money discussions / transactions.

I feel for you man - but hang in there. There are some good people out there that still take pride in their work. Hopefully you will fine one (some).
 
I think this all boils down to communication. That's the key in any business, and it applies here as well. I don't know how you keep a business running without it. There seems to be a real lack of it in this profession.

I can't imagine that these guys get a lot of call-backs. Apparently there is so much work out there that they don't have to worry about it.

Again, I'm generalizing, but based on my experiences, I'd say that's a true statement.
 
Flooring guy just canceled for this week - again. At least he called this time.

Edit: Spoke to my wife. The guy didn't call. She called him to confirm for Friday. Unbelievable! I think I'm going to just rent a sander.
 
For anything that involves a single component such as roof or window replacement, we will manage the project. Anything more such as a remodel, we use a gm so that no shows are their problem. It may cost a little more but it's much less of a headache as long as its a reputable company. My 2 cents.
 
I am a contractor.

Here are my bits of advice:
1. You, as the owner of the property, have all the control. (The rest of my points are what make this one true)
2. Hire 1 general contractor. Let them collect bids from their subcontractors and give you a firm price. Do not do a cost + agreement. If they insist on a cost + agreement, move on to a new general contractor.
3. The general contractor should be responsible for making sure the subs come to the site, not you. They are also responsible for keeping the job on schedule, not you.
4. Never pay upfront, unless materials have delivered. Contractors have credit, lines of credit, and often payment terms with their suppliers. There should never be a time you have to give a contractor money and trust that they are going to go out and spend it on material.
5. Hold retainage out of your payments. The laws vary from state to state, but legally, you should be able to hold 10% until the project is 100% complete. Some states it is 5%.
6. Establish a day for draws. Fridays are usually good for most parties. Ask for a draw to be sent to you Thursday evening, then go to the home Friday to check the request against what has been finished. Then write 1 check to the GC and let them distribute to the subs.
7. Attempt to find a contractor who can be obtain a performance bond. It shouldn't cost you very much to get a bond for a 50k-100k home renovation. That way, if the GC & all his subs decide to flake out, you call his surety company and they handle the financial ramifications.
8. Write your own contract. Do not accept their standard agreement. In the contract, establish a date of substantial completion. If you like, write in liquidated damages if you can't use the space past that date. LDs will be the thing that will scare potential GC's away from the project, so be reasonable with this.

All of this will probably lead to getting a final price that is more expensive than subbing it out all yourself, but you'll have a finished project in a reasonable amount of time, without all the headaches. Anyone who tells you the above advice doesn't apply to residential construction doesn't know what they are talking about.
 
Grannyknot said:
I am a contractor.

Here are my bits of advice:
1. You, as the owner of the property, have all the control. (The rest of my points are what make this one true)
2. Hire 1 general contractor. Let them collect bids from their subcontractors and give you a firm price. Do not do a cost + agreement. If they insist on a cost + agreement, move on to a new general contractor.
3. The general contractor should be responsible for making sure the subs come to the site, not you. They are also responsible for keeping the job on schedule, not you.
4. Never pay upfront, unless materials have delivered. Contractors have credit, lines of credit, and often payment terms with their suppliers. There should never be a time you have to give a contractor money and trust that they are going to go out and spend it on material.
5. Hold retainage out of your payments. The laws vary from state to state, but legally, you should be able to hold 10% until the project is 100% complete. Some states it is 5%.
6. Establish a day for draws. Fridays are usually good for most parties. Ask for a draw to be sent to you Thursday evening, then go to the home Friday to check the request against what has been finished. Then write 1 check to the GC and let them distribute to the subs.
7. Attempt to find a contractor who can be obtain a performance bond. It shouldn't cost you very much to get a bond for a 50k-100k home renovation. That way, if the GC & all his subs decide to flake out, you call his surety company and they handle the financial ramifications.
8. Write your own contract. Do not accept their standard agreement. In the contract, establish a date of substantial completion. If you like, write in liquidated damages if you can't use the space past that date. LDs will be the thing that will scare potential GC's away from the project, so be reasonable with this.

All of this will probably lead to getting a final price that is more expensive than subbing it out all yourself, but you'll have a finished project in a reasonable amount of time, without all the headaches. Anyone who tells you the above advice doesn't apply to residential construction doesn't know what they are talking about.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Honestly, I feel like I have very little control when I'm getting work done. I can control picking the guy, and signing the contract, but getting quality work done in a timely manner seems to be a problem.

Can I ask a question? My biggest problem is finding a guy I can trust. What's the best way to do that? Is there a place that I can get good, solid reviews (that haven't been messed with) of contractors? I go to BBB , and I feel they are pretty solid. However, I'm skeptical of some of the other open-ended review sites. It looks like anyone can post there.

My son worked for a guy for 2 Summers. He told me stories of how the guy would cut corners, skip steps, and not show up if he felt he'd underbid for the job. The guy blamed the homeowner if he wasn't making enough money on the job, rather than blaming himself for underbidding. In a few cases, he just abandoned the job because it wasn't worth his time to finish it. He got little repeat business, but he didn't seem to care. These are the type of guys I want to avoid.

All I want is a guy to give me an honest price, show up to do the work, and stand behind the work. It seems pretty straight forward.
 
b-boy said:
Can I ask a question? My biggest problem is finding a guy I can trust. What's the best way to do that? Is there a place that I can get good, solid reviews (that haven't been messed with) of contractors? I go to BBB , and I feel they are pretty solid. However, I'm skeptical of some of the other open-ended review sites. It looks like anyone can post there.
Click to expand...

Finding a small contractor who doesn't operate on a fly by night basis is tough. There are good ones out there, but yes, they are hard to find.

Probably the easiest way to find someone you can trust, is search google for your area commercial construction companies. Find the small(er) ones, who also dabble in residential construction.

Another way is to find your local builders exchange type of business. This is where contractors come to look for jobs they can bid on, or to look at blueprints for prospective jobs. This sort of place would probably have a list of reputable member contractors you could contact, and for a small fee, they may even let you post the scope of your work as a bid advertisement.

Wish I could be of more help, but I'm really not familiar with the state of NY at all.
 
Update: One of the contractors just caved. I've been hounding him to finish the job he started 2 weeks ago. I've been calling, leaving messages, and occasionally getting him on the phone several times a day. He guaranteed me the work will be done by EOD today. I'm not holding my breath, but at least it's an actual completion date. Usually it's 'I'll be there in a few days'. If he stiffs me today, I'm going Defcon level 5 on him (I have no idea what that even means).

I guess the squeaky wheel scenario does work.
 
b-boy said:
I guess the squeaky wheel scenario does work.
Click to expand...

It does. Just a matter of finding out how long they will listen to the squeaks.

I used to do contract management / jobsite management for GC's. We were commercial but used a LOT of residential contractors. The only thing that separated the commercial contractors was knowledge/compliance with safety requirements.
 
Friggin' guy showed up, put 1 section of gutter up, slapped some shingles on the bay windows, slopped some caulk around my chimney and left. He was probably there for an hour.

He's still not done. The bay windows look like crap. The shingles covering the hip rafters are flapping in the breeze. I can see the exposed nails from the ground. There is another section of gutter missing, and still no downspouts. I can guarantee my roof still leaks around the flashing.

Oh - and there's a roof jack in the middle of my roof. Looks like someone forgot it.

I'm guessing this will buy him another week, while I continue to chase him to finish the job.

Wow - can I pick em, or what?
 
If you ever do such work again, I agree with hiring a GC, bonded, with penalties.

I would also do a "labor only" price, and buy materials yourself, or buy materials on cost plus, with a maximum schedule of materials they commit to. (if they break or waste material, it's on them).

If you know exactly what you want / what materials, you can write specifications and quantity takeoffs, or have an architect do so.

I think most contractors want to be high quality and honest, but the reality is- they may be good at building, but they may not be good business people. They overbook, they underestimate, they can't manage subs. Small contractors don't have degrees in contracting (yes, those do exist, and are actually in high demand). If a GC is great, they'll book up quickly. Demand way outstrips supply in contractors.

I could go onto a Mike Rowe style rant that blue collar labor is dying, nobody appreciates craftsmanship. We are a BMC nation, with fancy degrees. That doesn't help you, I realize. I think be the squeaky wheel is your best bet, and next time will be better.
 
Cyclman said:
I think most contractors want to be high quality and honest, but the reality is- they may be good at building, but they may not be good business people.
Click to expand...

This comment is very true. However, most of being a good businessman is how to treat people, how to communicate, and how to plan and execute. You may need to get some education for accounting, but the rest is pretty much just common sense.
 
Quadrupled said:
This may be your problem :D - you need to go to level 1. This numbering system's intensity works the opposite of the burn scale.
Click to expand...

So, I shouldn't send flowers? Damn, I've been doing it backwards. I told you I had no idea what that means.

BTW - how does a roofer forget a roof jack and leave it on a roof? This is still bugging me.
 
b-boy said:
Just one. It's bright yellow. I saw it 30 seconds after I pulled up to the house.
Click to expand...

Wanted to make sure you knew he was here :)

One option in the future is to call like 10 contractors and say I am doing a walkthrough at x time on x day. Then go over the work with all of them that show up and ask for there bids.

Sounds like you are handy and your money would have been better spent taking unpaid leave to do it yourself. Sorry for all the problems

Were you the guy with the concrete sidewalk issue earlier?
 
It's not just contractors......getting anybody, to do anything, anymore is a pain in the arse. From the kid working at the grocery store, to the drywall guy that never comes out to do an estimate, to Congress..... Quite depressing.
 
If it makes you guys feel any better, I oversee million dollar construction projects and I've got the same problems.

An $800k project might seem large until that paving contractor gets a $45 mil contract with the DOT. He'll send someone out to our site once a week to push some dirt around to justify the pay app.

We have a few GC's that we work with on a regular basis, and they treat us well, only because we will be bidding out over $150 mil in projects over the next few years. Sometimes even they get forgetful.
 
Maybe finland is very different, or maybe it is because i work at a vocational school and they will find out all different levels of hell if i get annoyed, but i've never had a contractor be late, let alone not call or do bad work...

Now they aren't cheap as such, but competetive for the region.
 
Well, I've officially been screwed over by my flooring guy. He was supposed to refinish my hardwoods on Friday. He says there was a death in the family. He's going out of town, and has no idea when he'll be returning. He won't give me an estimate of when he can do the work. He's given me so many excuses so far, I don't believe a word of it. He'd already canceled several times. I told him that this weekend had to happen because I'm moving in on the 21st. We held off moving, because we wanted to get these floors finished prior to moving in. I've been chasing this guy for 2 months.

I have to move in this weekend. None of the floors are done. I have put all my furniture somewhere until I can get another guy in to do the work. The house has to be empty. I'll probably end up renting a few pods. Looks like I'll be sleeping on a mattress on the floor for a month or so.

I found another guy, but he can't do the job until the end of September. He's a younger guy with his own business. He only restores floors and woodwork in old homes. He seems to know what he's talking about. He knew wood species, and construction specifics about the house based on it's age.

I got a kick out of talking to him. His first words were "I want to let you know that I'm not a ********* contractor". Apparently he used to work for a guy who would line up work for the month, knowing he couldn't do it. The guy needed to make x dollars per month. His goal was making x dollars in the fewest number of days. He'd work until he hit that number, then he'd just stop. Anyone still in the queue got screwed over. The whole process would start over the next month. Since there were always new calls, he always had work. If he got stuck, he'd call the people he screwed over, apologize, and try to talk them into letting him do the work.

He also told me a story about his own home. He hired a roofer who showed up, tore the old roof off, and left for 3 days - no tarp. There was a huge rainstorm and his ceiling caved on. Real nice!
 
I used to be a project engineer (functioned as project manager) for a large chemical plant. A contractor rep once told me that fighting with a contractor is like wrestling a pig in the mud. After a while you realize the pig likes it.
 

Similar threads

Brushwood Brewing
You Know You've Spent Too Much Time on HBT When...
Replies
10
Views
642
Brooothru
Brooothru
seatazzz
I wonder what would happen if....
Replies
15
Views
817
PashMaddle
PashMaddle
hilljack13
What did I order while drinking...
Replies
32
Views
1K
Dland
Dland
E
Sold SOLD - 20 Gallon E-HERMS brewing system. SC
Replies
4
Views
544
LakeHartwellSkier
LakeHartwellSkier
Broken Crow
How do other actual brewers feel about 'Beer Flights'?
2 3
Replies
81
Views
4K
pvtpublic
pvtpublic

Latest posts

Back
Top