I brewed a favorite recipe today

[Pehlman17]

Woof, this has NOT held up very well. Starting to taste a kind of "ashy", as if I'd used way more than 5% black patent. And the chocolate is barely noticeable. It was really nice for a good 2 week window, tho -- any ideas?

I personally wouldn't ideally carbonate a beer like that to 2.8 volumes. That's about where I typically take my Belgian abbey ales. I would assume keeping the CO2 volumes at 2 or below would soften the beer and present it as a bit more "cask-like". Otherwise I could see it coming off as too sharp on the palate.

3 lbs Briess Golden Light DME at end of steep, and bring to boil

How much water did you steep the grains in initially? If it was your full pre-boil volume, that could also be a culprit. If that was the case, you might want to try adding your DME before the steep. That could create a better environment to mitigate the extraction of astringent qualities from those roasted grains. Plus you're probably not looking for a ton of fermentables from those specialty grains anyway, but the pH of wort as opposed to just water might create a better medium for smoother flavor extraction.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Nice looking beer! That's the color that I still prefer for my pale ales and IPA's over the modern straight pils malt stuff. If you were to brew a similar batch with some steeping grains do you think you'd still use the Amber DME or would you prefer to use one of Muntons' lighter DME's in that case? Do you have a favorite DME from them?

Thanks! I think have one more bottle of this in the back of the fridge.

The amber DME has specialty malts in it. If I wanted to use my own mix of specialties, I'd choose one of their lighter DMEs, presumably ~100% base malt.

The amber DME let's me streamline the extract brewday. When I want more control of the recipe I go all-grain.

 

[Hoochin'Hank]

I personally wouldn't ideally carbonate a beer like that to 2.8 volumes. That's about where I typically take my Belgian abbey ales. I would assume keeping the CO2 volumes at 2 or below would soften the beer and present it as a bit more "cask-like". Otherwise I could see it coming off as too sharp on the palate.

I take your point, but I think mostly, it was just a weird recipe! I've already made two more, tweaking some things, first one is really tasty, second one still bottle carbing. Kinda wish I could go back and just delete that post (#157), it doesn't belong in a "favorites" thread at all. But maybe it can still serve as a warning to any who follow along.

How much water did you steep the grains in initially? If it was your full pre-boil volume, that could also be a culprit. If that was the case, you might want to try adding your DME before the steep. That could create a better environment to mitigate the extraction of astringent qualities from those roasted grains. Plus you're probably not looking for a ton of fermentables from those specialty grains anyway, but the pH of wort as opposed to just water might create a better medium for smoother flavor extraction.

Yeah, full 3 gallon volume for the steep, no DME prior.

 

[Pehlman17]

I take your point, but I think mostly, it was just a weird recipe! I've already made two more, tweaking some things, first one is really tasty, second one still bottle carbing. Kinda wish I could go back and just delete that post (#157), it doesn't belong in a "favorites" thread at all. But maybe it can still serve as a warning to any who follow along.


Yeah, full 3 gallon volume for the steep, no DME prior.

The recipe doesn't look weird to me at all. If I had to guess I'd say the issue was likely steeping in 3 gallons of plain water. I'd give the recipe another shot if I were you, and try mixing the DME into your water first. (Should dissolve just fine at room temp.) From there you can either start the steep cold and let it hang out while you bring the wort up to 155F, or you can bring it to temp first and then start your steep.

You could play around with cold steeping as well. Some prefer the character it provides. The day before you brew, take your roasted malts (and even the crystal malts too if you want I suppose) and put them in a jar or bowl with a lid, and cover them with a quart or two of water. 2:1 quarts per pound is a good ratio to aim for. Just let that sit at room temp until the next day. Then just decant the liquid off of the grains (a fine mesh sieve, your grain steeping bag, or cheese cloth all work) and add that liquid at the very end of your boil. Some people swear that the less heat you expose your dark grains to the better, but that's debatable IMHO.

Anyway, lots of fun to be had. Cheers!

Edit: One last thought I had... You also might not need that sugar addition either. I think a chocolate porter like that might actually benefit flavor-wise from a bit less fermentabilty. A bit more residual sweetness might compliment the chocolate and the roast. @BrewnWKopperKat often recommends brewer's crystals if you want to play around with something different. Otherwise maybe just use more DME or perhaps even some lactose instead of table sugar could be worth playing with.

 

[Hoochin'Hank]

I originally started out cold-steeping all my dark roasts, but found that left me with not enough roastiness. Lately, I've been doing steeping grains in a bag, in 1 gallon of water pre-heated to 155F, remove from heat, and let sit for 30 minutes, and then skimming as many floating husk bits as I can before bringing to a boil with 1/3 of my DME and then hops. (pretty much like DBMoody describes his reduced volume boils).

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@Hoochin'Hank : did you brew that recipe with RO/distilled water, your tap water, or a blend?

​

aside, the idea of steeping in wort, rather than just water, can also be found in How to Brew, 4e. The reasoning presented in the book is that steeping in wort helps with wort pH, moderates temperature swings, and reduces the risk of tannin extraction from grain husks.​

 

[Hoochin'Hank]

did you brew that recipe with RO/distilled water, your tap water, or a blend?

aside, the idea of steeping in wort, rather than just water, can also be found in How to Brew, 4e. The reasoning presented in the book is that steeping in wort helps with wort pH, moderates temperature swings, and reduces the risk of tannin extraction from grain husks.​

Half RO + half tap water (w/ tiny pinch of potassium metabisulfate). Tap water is quite basic (like 239 HCO3). But I think you guys are misunderstanding my complaint about the beer -- I'm not getting "harsh or acrid", I'm getting "ashy". My hunch is once most of the chocolate flavor started fading, it stopped covering up the black patent, and I don't like it as much as I thought I did.

The good news, is I drank MOST of the bottles while they were still very tasty. Got 4 left, I'll try them this summer, to see if RM-MN's advice is any good!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Half RO + half tap water (w/ tiny pinch of potassium metabisulfate). Tap water is quite basic (like 239 HCO3).

Thanks.

I'm not certain of the impact of the high (100+ HCO3) and 10%-ish black malt.

I've done couple of 'side experiment' steeps with a pH meter and Brewers Friend - the models matched reality pretty close. When I modeled steeping black malt with water that has a high CaC03 (yes, I found a conversion from HC03), I didn't like what I saw. Maybe it's nothing more than me misusing a tool.

 

[Hoochin'Hank]

I've done couple of 'side experiment' steeps with a pH meter and Brewers Friend - the models matched reality pretty close. When I modeled steeping black malt with water that has a high CaC03 (yes, I found a conversion from HC03), I didn't like what I saw. Maybe it's nothing more than me misusing a tool.

Since I'm too lazy to mix all my water into a bucket, I usually use it like so:
Pour first 1 gal RO jug into steeping pot @ 155, remove from heat, wait 30 mins
Pour second 1 gal RO jug into spaghetti pot, to dissolve the bulk of the DME unattended
Fill those two jugs with water from the tap, add pinch of metabisulfite, and then use them (and the last gallon from tap barely gets used)...

 

[D.B.Moody]

o:
Pour first 1 gal RO jug into steeping pot @ 155, remove from heat, wait 30 mins

what is this wait for?

 

[Hoochin'Hank]

what is this wait for?

I did word that a little oddly! I bring the "first" 1 gallon jug of RO water up to 155F, add the ground-up steeping grains, cover with lid, remove from heat, set a timer for 30 minutes, and tend to other things, like putting 2/3 of my DME into a separate pot, re-filling the store-bought RO water jugs with tap water, treating them for chloramine, weighing hops, sanitizing the fermenter and siphon and so forth.

 

[D.B.Moody]

I did word that a little oddly! I bring the "first" 1 gallon jug of RO water up to 155F, add the ground-up steeping grains, cover with lid, remove from heat, set a timer for 30 minutes, and tend to other things, like putting 2/3 of my DME into a separate pot, re-filling the store-bought RO water jugs with tap water, treating them for chloramine, weighing hops, sanitizing the fermenter and siphon and so forth.

Okay, I get it. I do the same thing when I'm steeping grains. The recipes I post say steep for 30 min at 150-160, but what I really do is get the water to 160, then add the grains and turn off the heat.I can add heat if it starts to fall under 150

 

[RM-MN]

Steeping your grains can be done from less than 120 to near boil. The temperature for steeping isn't critical at all. The main reason to steep at 150 to 160 is to practice for when you intend to do all grain and then the temperature is critical as the enzymes for making the sugars only work in that range.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If steeping is practicing for mashing, then flying a RC plane is practicing for being an airline pilot.

In a BIAB mash, the weight of the grains, in combination with a properly insulated kettle, will stabilize the mash temperature. No amount of adjusting the water temperature during previous steeps will change that fact.

As for the results of steeping at various temperatures, that was well covered by a Zymurgy magazine article back in ~ 2002. Different temperatures / techniques will yield different results.

Is the beer ruined if the temperature graph of the steep looks like a cosine graph vs a line at 153.234*? Of course not.

 

[mac_1103]

Is the beer ruined if the temperature graph of the steep looks like a cosine graph vs a line at 153.234*? Of course not.

Well that's a relief!

 

[bellhp]

Just brewed a batch of Toad spit stout(Toad Hall) ... hopefully it will become a favorite recipe.
Used Magnum for bittering and fuggles for aroma but otherwise according to recipe .

 

[ncbrewer]

They did not taste alike. Breiss lacked taste. It wasn't bad, just too bland. Muntons had enough character to be a nice session bitter. My conclusion, as @DBhomebrew found in his comparison in post #122, is that Muntons is worth it.

This is from your post #146. I understand the water Briess uses in their mash for making extract is somewhat high in sodium. Do you use distilled/RO water or tap water for your extract batches? I ask because if your water has much sodium at all, it would make the problem worse. Using distilled or RO water might improve beer brewed with Briess extract.

Edit: I see that DBhomebrew made a post (#122) similar to D.B.Moody's post that I referenced. I have the same question for you - distilled/RO or tap water?

 

[D.B.Moody]

Do you use distilled/RO water or tap water for your extract batches?

I use tap water, but I run it through an old NSA water filter to remove chlorine. It removes other stuff as well, so my fairly neutral tap water becomes even more so.

Also, please note that I only brew ales. I favor British style bitters and pale ales. I do use Briess for two of my recipes: Summer Ale that features Centennial and Cascades hops and my American Brown ale that tries to emulate Civil Life Brown,