I almost gave up brewing.

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

BeerWars

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 2, 2010
Messages
377
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
I started brewing over the summer after first watching Beer Wars and then reading through Homebrewing for Dummies. I always drank BMC's (including what I thought was a craft beer Blue Moon).

Wanting to brew what I was accustomed to, my first batch was an all-grain Miller Lite clone using a self-modified version of DeathBrewers method (should have followed to a T). I mashed WAY too high, took forever to sparge. The final result was drinkable if you don't mind cringing a little with the aftertaste.

I tried the same recipe again with my same modified method thinking the drinkability problems were caused by the high mash temps. This time the beer turned out considerably better; but still not something I would ever buy.

I kind of felt defeated. I had invested all of this money, hours researching / brewing, and a couple months of waiting and all I had for my effort was beer that substandard. My friends would drink it (and tell me it was decent); but it was embarrassing that something I put so much time and effort into was subpar. Some people cant bake, I figured I just couldn't brew.

Then I decided to take a step back and make an Extract batch - Deception Creme Stout. I brewed and bottled, and while I was waiting for it to carb / condition I bought some Young's Double Chocolate Stout which was really good. You could imagine the joy I felt when I cracked my first bottle of Deception and it was BETTER than Young's! I was so proud to serve it to my buddies and when I kick one back it feels so good that I made something that tastes so great.

Coming off my success I figured I would give all-grain another try - Bee Cave Brewery Haus Pale Ale following DeatBrewers guide explicitly. It just went into bottles but the sample that tried was phenomenal!

I'm officially hooked. I went from getting ready to sell my stuff - to asking for a mashtun and a bigger brewpot for Christmas.

Anyone have a similar experience of going from COMPLETE frustration to being hooked?
 
No, but just wanted to offer a word of affirmation about your extract brewing experience -great beers can be made with that process. And you can focus on other aspects of brewing, like yeast health or managing fermentation. Congrats on your brew!
 
I can totally understand how starting with AG could be frustrating. There's quite a bit more process to pay attention to. I started doing AG this past year, but I still do extract periodically, particularly when I don't have time to do AG but still want to brew. There's noting wrong with mixing and matching brewing methods. You'll get great beer either way. And why not do some extract while you work on your AG techniques. :mug: Best of luck. Keep in mind, EVERYONE has crappy batches once in a while.
 
1 of my early ag batches was a northern english brown. man, was i glad when it was gone, as i couldn't bring myself to dump it!!! kick back, have a homebrew, and go at it again. we've all been there
 
No, but just wanted to offer a word of affirmation about your extract brewing experience -great beers can be made with that process. And you can focus on other aspects of brewing, like yeast health or managing fermentation. Congrats on your brew!

The weather just broke here - so I can get my fermentation temps down. I hear that makes the biggest improvement.
 
I can totally understand how starting with AG could be frustrating. There's quite a bit more process to pay attention to. I started doing AG this past year, but I still do extract periodically, particularly when I don't have time to do AG but still want to brew. There's noting wrong with mixing and matching brewing methods. You'll get great beer either way. And why not do some extract while you work on your AG techniques. :mug: Best of luck. Keep in mind, EVERYONE has crappy batches once in a while.

I was pleased with the results, but there is something that lacks in satisfaction of making an extract batch. I just had 2 in a row... LOL
 
1 of my early ag batches was a northern english brown. man, was i glad when it was gone, as i couldn't bring myself to dump it!!! kick back, have a homebrew, and go at it again. we've all been there

LOL - sounds like we were in the same boat. OMG the first batch didn't taste bad when you were pouring it down, but the aftertaste was so brutal that you had to shake your head after each sip. I was relieved when it was gone.
 
That was two big mistakes right from the start:
#1: All-Grain is just too much for a newbe brewer.
#2: a good American Lager is impossible to home brew.

Yeah, certainly would have enjoyed the hobby from the beginning if I went extract for atleast the first batch. I am glad however that I just dove it but I wish it were a different recipe.

I definitely respect how difficult it is to brew a BMC lager at home. The recipe was nowhere close to a BMC other than the color.

It is amazing how much homebrewing has opened my eyes to the world of beer. BMC was all I ever drank. I was forced on Thanksgiving to drink Miller Lite and it was such an empty experience.
 
The weather just broke here - so I can get my fermentation temps down. I hear that makes the biggest improvement.

Yes, if you can't get your temps down to the sixties, most ales are not going to turn out well. I have a basement which gets me there - I also sometimes use a large tub with water and frozen juice/soda bottles when I need the temp to be a little lower. This is easy and simple.

Again, congratulations on your brew!
 
That was two big mistakes right from the start:
#1: All-Grain is just too much for a newbe brewer.

False! There are a good number of people that have started doing all-grain from the very first batch, myself included. I have only ever done all-grain, and have no regrets. Additionally my very first batch was a Winterfest and it won first place in a local clubs tasting night contest.

I just wanted to dispel this notion, because there is no boogey man to all grain-- anyone can do it.

That said, I am not implying AG is the only "right" method to brew or anything of the sort-- that is up to each individual. For me AG was right, and for others extract is the way to go.

But again, if you want to go AG from the first batch, do so!
 
That was two big mistakes right from the start:
#1: All-Grain is just too much for a newbe brewer.
#2: a good American Lager is impossible to home brew.

I think you have their ranks swapped. I've known brewers who came out of the gate doing all grain with decent results. I've never known ANYONE who could nail an American Lager on their first try. I'm on my 8th attempt at an American Lager and it's just now starting to go from acceptable to decent. And I've been brewing for about 8 years now.
 
Yes, if you can't get your temps down to the sixties, most ales are not going to turn out well. I have a basement which gets me there - I also sometimes use a large tub with water and frozen juice/soda bottles when I need the temp to be a little lower. This is easy and simple.

Again, congratulations on your brew!

I see you live in the Chicagoland area too. I don't have a basement. The cold weather has made my front closet a perfect fermentation chamber. Pretty stoked to start my next batch.
 
False! There are a good number of people that have started doing all-grain from the very first batch, myself included. I have only ever done all-grain, and have no regrets. Additionally my very first batch was a Winterfest and it won first place in a local clubs tasting night contest.

I just wanted to dispel this notion, because there is no boogey man to all grain-- anyone can do it.

That said, I am not implying AG is the only "right" method to brew or anything of the sort-- that is up to each individual. For me AG was right, and for others extract is the way to go.

But again, if you want to go AG from the first batch, do so!

I agree - I think I chose a recipe and expected something that it was never going to be.
 
I think you have their ranks swapped. I've known brewers who came out of the gate doing all grain with decent results. I've never known ANYONE who could nail an American Lager on their first try. I'm on my 8th attempt at an American Lager and it's just now starting to go from acceptable to decent. And I've been brewing for about 8 years now.

I agree - I brewed something not understanding how difficult a BMC lager was to replicate. Poor recipe choice on my part. Only after I had substandard results twice, did I learn how tricky is is for a homebrewer to replicate BMC results.
 
I think there is a big myth out there and perhaps here too about all grain resulting in better beer than extract. It's simply not true. I do both AG and extract with steeping depending on time and convenience and my best batches so far had been produced with the extracts, granted I have done a lot more extracts than AGs. I'm hoping to have more time to do more AG in 2011 just to have more options at slightly lower prices for ingredients but not really hoping for better-than-extract beers.
 
I think there is a big myth out there and perhaps here too about all grain resulting in better beer than extract. It's simply not true. I do both AG and extract with steeping depending on time and convenience and my best batches so far had been produced with the extracts, granted I have done a lot more extracts than AGs. I'm hoping to have more time to do more AG in 2011 just to have more options at slightly lower prices for ingredients but not really hoping for better-than-extract beers.

I made the switch to all grain and I can attest to extract making great beer in the right styles. That being said, all other things being equal, all grain will always make better beer than extract. The freshness, mash temp control and ability to use more varieties of grain can't be duplicated by extract... period. Extract was a great way to get into the hobby, but I won't be going to back extract.
 
I made the switch to all grain and I can attest to extract making great beer in the right styles. That being said, all other things being equal, all grain will always make better beer than extract. The freshness, mash temp control and ability to use more varieties of grain can't be duplicated by extract... period. Extract was a great way to get into the hobby, but I won't be going to back extract.

I sort of disagree, sorry. All those things you are talking about (freshness, mash temp control and ability to use more varieties of grain) give you plenty more options and control but not necessarily better beer. There are certain types of beer that simply cannot be done with extract, that's the difference. You don't even need a mini mash. With all the specialty grains available for steeping and the huge variety of high-quality extracts in the market today, you can produce great beers. I also found that the cost of AG ingredients compared to extract is not as cheaper as some say, like for instance, I hear people saying all the time you can cut cost by half but that’s hardly true in my experience. John Palmer talks about the same thing in his book, that is, he recommends the use of AG to expand the options (any beer in the world can be made by AG) but not necessarily produce better beers. He mentioned that many award winning beers are from extract. I heard of people who have got several awards with extract recipes but have not being able to replicate the same achievements with AG recipes, probably because of problems mastering all the variables in the AG process. Like I said before, I do plan to brew more and more AG in 2011 because, above all, I found it to be a lot more enjoyable than extract brewing, but I don’t ever plan to give up those quick extract recipes that produce outstanding beers, so far, my best ones.
 
I see you live in the Chicagoland area too. I don't have a basement. The cold weather has made my front closet a perfect fermentation chamber. Pretty stoked to start my next batch.

You might try the bin with water and frozen juice or soda bottles. I don't think I've got a picture of it, but its so easy to do, its not messy or ghetto. I just leave a floating thermometer in it and swap out the bottles before I go to work and in the evening. I watch the temp to see how many bottles I need to add to the water - usually its either one or two at a time.

Otherwise, if you can't get your fermentation temps down to the sixties, you will be limited. With a handful of exceptions (saison, for example), its difficult to ferment good beer at room temperatures for much of the year in Chicago.

Tonight, it will be time for the first fire in the fireplace this winter. I don't think its supposed to get above freezing today.
 
I also found that the cost of AG ingredients compared to extract is not as cheaper as some say, like for instance, I hear people saying all the time you can cut cost by half but that’s hardly true in my experience.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to disagree about the cost. I pay $1.09/lb for base grain if I buy it by the pound, and about 80 cents/lb if I buy in bulk. I get around 82-85% efficeincy, which means a 5.5gal, 1.050 OG beer costs me around $7-$11 in grain costs depending on which specialty grains I use. And there are lots of people that get bulk grain for much cheaper than I do.

With extract, a 1.050 beer would require 8lbs of liquid or 6.5lbs of dry. liquid is about $2.79/lb and dry is $3.99/lb

That's $22-26, maybe $20-24 if you do a partial mash, hardly comparable. Any of my brews that are lightly hopped, using US-05 or US-04 are under $20 total.

I do agree that you can't cut your ingredient cost in half, but you can definitely cut your malt cost in half. And for me, saving $10 a batch means every 3rd batch is free compared to extract; obviously at the expense of a longer brewday.
 
I sort of disagree, sorry. All those things you are talking about (freshness, mash temp control and ability to use more varieties of grain) give you plenty more options and control but not necessarily better beer.

As I said, all other things being equal. Same technique, fermentation, etc. There really isn't any arguing this. You get fresh wort straight from the grain or extract that, even at its freshest, has spent time in warehouses and trucks. I agree you can make great beer, but there really isn't any arguing that all grain brewing will allow you to produce a better product, all other things being equal.
 
I'm sorry, but I'm going to disagree about the cost. I pay $1.09/lb for base grain if I buy it by the pound, and about 80 cents/lb if I buy in bulk. I get around 82-85% efficeincy, which means a 5.5gal, 1.050 OG beer costs me around $7-$11 in grain costs depending on which specialty grains I use. And there are lots of people that get bulk grain for much cheaper than I do.

With extract, a 1.050 beer would require 8lbs of liquid or 6.5lbs of dry. liquid is about $2.79/lb and dry is $3.99/lb

That's $22-26, maybe $20-24 if you do a partial mash, hardly comparable. Any of my brews that are lightly hopped, using US-05 or US-04 are under $20 total.

I do agree that you can't cut your ingredient cost in half, but you can definitely cut your malt cost in half. And for me, saving $10 a batch means every 3rd batch is free compared to extract; obviously at the expense of a longer brewday.

Every rule has an exception. You cannot cherry pick and use it as a general rule. I believe a minority of people have access to grains as cheap as you can get and have an efficiency as high as yours. The cheapest I can get for grains in about 40% higher than yours. My efficiency is around 70% and the vast majority of people brew somewhere around 75% efficiency as far as I know. Don't forget also the extra investiment for AG. For most people it takes several batches to compensate for that. As for time, well, since I enjoy brewing, I don't really take that into consideration.
 
As I said, all other things being equal. Same technique, fermentation, etc. There really isn't any arguing this. You get fresh wort straight from the grain or extract that, even at its freshest, has spent time in warehouses and trucks. I agree you can make great beer, but there really isn't any arguing that all grain brewing will allow you to produce a better product, all other things being equal.


I hate to insist on this and maybe I'm missing your point, but with all other things being equal, there should not be noticeable differences between AG and extract.

The grains you use are also subject to lack of freshness from transport or aging. Quite frankly, the extract production and processing allow it to keep fresh much longer than grains.

Any experienced brewer knows that it is not a good idea to buy grains from small local store who don't sell a lot because the grains are kept stored too long. For the extracts, you have the expriration date to assure freshness. You have no control over grains. That's why I like to buy from the big guys who pack hundreds of pounds every day!
 
I hate to insist on this and maybe I'm missing your point, but with all other things being equal, there should not be noticeable differences between AG and extract.

I agree but want to stress the "all other things being equal" part. Boiling half your water and adding the other half unboiled from your faucet when doing extract is not the same as boiling your entire brew in AG. You are not driving off volitiles like DMS.

Also, first getting a brew pot large enough to boil the entire brew and then getting/making a wort chiller (imersion or couter flow) would make the final jump to AG much easier for those who have cold feet about the upgrade.
 
The best beer I have made to date was my Saison with LME. It was even a partial boil. I think the Saison style and yeast lends itself well to extract brewing. However, it seems like yeast intended to emphasize malt presence like Northwest Ale bring out the cloying twang from the extract. I look forward to brewing up the Northern Brewer Moose Drool AG to compare to my bottled extract version.
 
Also, first getting a brew pot large enough to boil the entire brew and then getting/making a wort chiller (imersion or couter flow) would make the final jump to AG much easier for those who have cold feet about the upgrade.

Well yeah, except the cost is quite the investment. That's what held me back for so long. Still don't have a chiller cause I'm broke.
 
Well yeah, except the cost is quite the investment. That's what held me back for so long. Still don't have a chiller cause I'm broke.

I can relate. The price of copper has skyrocketed since I made mine, but I made mine very cheaply. I bought a roll of copper tube from Lowes, 3 hose clamps, 2 four foot tygon hoses, and a threaded to barbed adaptor to attach to my utility sink. I coiled the tube around a coffee can.

I can't remember how much the copper was, but I want to say $25. I have no idea what it costs now, but it could be double what I paid.
 
I can't remember how much the copper was, but I want to say $25. I have no idea what it costs now, but it could be double what I paid.

I made mine a couple of years ago, I think I spent a grand total of $30 on it.
A roll of copper, shapers, clear tubing, clamps and attachments for the faucet...

It's an ugly fugger but, it gets the job done!
 
You might try the bin with water and frozen juice or soda bottles. I don't think I've got a picture of it, but its so easy to do, its not messy or ghetto. I just leave a floating thermometer in it and swap out the bottles before I go to work and in the evening. I watch the temp to see how many bottles I need to add to the water - usually its either one or two at a time.

Otherwise, if you can't get your fermentation temps down to the sixties, you will be limited. With a handful of exceptions (saison, for example), its difficult to ferment good beer at room temperatures for much of the year in Chicago.

Tonight, it will be time for the first fire in the fireplace this winter. I don't think its supposed to get above freezing today.

We don't have a lot of space right now and I am pushing my luck already with SWMBO with my carboys and buckets. We hope to be getting out of here soon and into a place with a basement where I will be free to do whatever. I'm excited to see how the next batch turns out now that I can control the temperature.

Had to brush my car off this morning. grrrrr
 
I guess I should clear something up.

It is SWMBO that feels MY time working on the "Honey Do" list is more important than doing an AG.

So, I guess concidering the lip I get for not doing HER stuff, makes the lips I get for doing it, worth keeping some of MY time free for her Stuff.

[To have a marrage last 36 years, you MUST compromise. For me, it is extract brewing.]
 
I feel MY time spent not doing AG is easy worth the $10+ spent on extract.

Unless I decide to do a brew that CANNOT be done with extract.

I feel you on that. I think my brewstore is a little on the expensive side for extracts. From what I remember it was about $20 more than I usually spend for grain. It however shaves at least 2 hours off my brew day by doing extract. Time is money...
 
I started brewing over the summer after first watching Beer Wars and then reading through Homebrewing for Dummies. I always drank BMC's (including what I thought was a craft beer Blue Moon).

Anyone have a similar experience of going from COMPLETE frustration to being hooked?

Whoa, our experiences in getting started were the same!
Except for the BMC part. (Eww.)

My first was a Belgian White, I was excited as heck, but the beer had a soapy flavor to it, which I believe is either due to old extract (it was a kit beer) or the use of Saaz hops (which I learned I don't like too much anyway).

All of my others have been much better and soap free!! :cool:
 
Back
Top