How would you brew clean malty ale?

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cbird01

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Ok, what style of beer would you make with what type of yeast to create a beer closest (I know it will not be the same) to a lager?

WITH the following constraints -
1) you can only ferment and bottle condition at 64deg min
2) You want to be able to drink within 6 weeks. (thanksgiving)
3) You do not have all grain equipment (I have only steeped grains, but would love to try a simple mini-mash for the first time if it did not involve new equipment)

Looking for something with no lingering sweetness and a clean malty palate, ABV 3-5%, low bitterness, good hop flavor/aroma (thinking saaz, Tettnanger, Hallertau)

Open for suggestions!
 

Pumbaa

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just banged something real sinmple out on promash . . . should be cheep and ez to make

down and dirty
A ProMash Recipe Report
BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------
10-A American Ale, American Pale Ale
Min OG: 1.045 Max OG: 1.060
Min IBU: 30 Max IBU: 54
Min Clr: 5 Max Clr: 14 Color in SRM, Lovibond
Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Extract (Lbs): 7.00
Anticipated OG: 1.046 Plato: 11.53
Anticipated SRM: 7.1
Anticipated IBU: 30.0
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes
Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------
Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 5.88 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.039 SG 9.86 Plato

Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
85.7 6.00 lbs. Briess LME- Gold America 75.74 4
14.3 1.00 lbs. Aromatic Malt Belgium 73.35 25
Potential represented as Yield, Coarse Grind As Is.

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 oz. Tettnanger Whole 4.50 20.1 60 min.
1.00 oz. Saazer Whole 4.30 9.8 30 min.
1.00 oz. Hallertauer Whole 4.00 0.0 Dry Hop

Yeast
-----
Wyeast 1272 American Ale II
maybe Wyeast 2112 California Lager
 
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cbird01

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When it says "whole" hops, does that mean I don't use pellets, or are pellets fine?

You sure this won't come out on the bitter side? Want to avoid that.

Would that Belgium Malt be a specialty grain that I steep at 155 before putting the LME in? If so, how long?

Just for my interest in learning hop scheduling, could you go over your rational for what you picked and the order.

Thanks!

Craig
 

Brewsmith

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Pellets are fine, you just need to use less. Pellets are ground and pressed from whole hops. Because they have more surface area, you get more hop utilization out of them, needing less than whole hops.

For the tettnanger and saaz hops, you could proabaly go with 7/8 an ounce or so instead of 1 ounce if you get pellets. The dry hops don't add bitterness, so they won't matter.

It's not on the bitter side. All of the hop varieties are low alpha acid hops.
The hop schedule that pumbaa posted is fairly classic lager by times and amounts.

Steep the grain for 30 minutes.
 
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cbird01

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Brewsmith said:
The hop schedule that pumbaa posted is fairly classic lager by times and amounts.
How about why he put Tettenanger for bittering, Saazer for flavor and Hallertauer for aroma?
 
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cbird01

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My LHBS only has Light, Amber, Wheat and Dark Extract. Would any of the DME be better: Muntons Light, Extra Light, AMber, Wheat OR Laaglander Light, Extra Light or Amber.

By the way, I am going for dry and I hear the more fermentable extracts will help with that (hear some Canadien or Australlian extracts are good for this) If I have to go for mail order, I guess thats what I will do, becuase they also only carry WhiteLabs and I like the stats on the Wyeast Cal Lager.

Never did mail order..where is a good place with low prices/fast shipping?
 

Brewsmith

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The extra light DME will work fine. I don't know the stats on the fermentability by brand. White Labs has a similar strain, WLP-810 San Francisco Lager. It will get you closer than an ale yeast without having to do traditional lager temps
 

Brewsmith

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If you go with DME, again, you'll have to use less of it. Use 4.5-5 lbs compared to the 6 lbs of LME.
 

Pumbaa

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cbird01 said:
How about why he put Tettenanger for bittering, Saazer for flavor and Hallertauer for aroma?
I dunno . . . I think I used the Tettenanger for bittering because it had the highest AA but you can mix them up as ya like. here's a couple links that may be usefull for malts and hops that I use alot . . . .
http://www.brewsupplies.com/grain_profiles.htm
http://***********/referenceguide/hops/

The Aromatic malt will give you a strong malt armoa and some good color

The hops
Tettenanger - mild and slightly spicey, wont taste if used for 60 minutes, just get the bittering fromthem
Saaz - mild and pleasant, earthy and spicy
Hallertauer - very mild, pleasant, slightly flowery and some spice

It's a very simple basic beer but still should have a bit of complexity to it . . . hell I may have to make it myself

agree on the DME, will be fine but you will need less . . . about 5.5 lbs according to promash. I only used the gold because it was light in color. The Muttons extra light is just a shade lighter (3SRM vs 4SRM).

Yeast wise IMHO (and I know this is a 3rd wire kinda thing) Whitelabs / Wyeast it really dont matter. If ya like one or can only buy the one brand at your LHBS it's no big deal. For the most part they both have the same yeast . . . if not exactly the same close enuff 90% of us wouldnt be able to tell the difference. That reminds me . . . 2 more links . . .
http://www.wyeastlab.com/beprlist.htm
http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/homebrew_strains.html

I know sometimes coming up with a recipie can be intimidating but TBH it's not a big deal. With those 4 links above you have just about everything ya need to figure out basicly what your beer is going to taste like. If ya have a basic idea start with the malt, then figure out what hops ya want, finally decide on the yeast. Those links will tell ya everything you need to know flavor wise and the rest will come from your personal tastes and experiances. I would HIGHLY suggest a program like Promash if you are going to start experimenting if not for any other reason it helps out with all your proportions of the malt and helps figure out them IBUs. Besides it has all the guideline for styles if you were interested in trying to folow them.

Why did I pick the ingrediants I picked?
I checked out the info from those pages and thats what gave me the profile you asked for.

Why did I go with those amounts?
I used Promash and the charts from those links and stayed withing the guidelines.

Why did I put the hops in for those times and in that order?
Hell if I know . . .felt good I guess:fro:
 

jerly

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Any way you could post an all grain version of this. Sounds good.
 

jerly

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simple enough I guess. Should I lower the hops amounts because of the larger boil, or would it not matter enough?
 
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cbird01

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This sounds great, going to get the supplies.

What color should I expect from this, considering the changes to the original recipe (5.5lbs of extra light DME) Also, I understand that the Aromatic grains should be mashed, but some of the characteristics will be extracted with steeping. What is this grain contributing to this beer considering that limitation, and what does it do for the color?

Any other suggestions or techniques to aid in the clarity or dryness I want to achieve?

Not trying to question everything, just want to learn more each time I brew.....thanks guys...I did not get such a warm reception over at Northern Brewer forum.

Craig
 

Pumbaa

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should get a SRM of about 6 (dark dehydrated pee)
Dont worry about mashing the grain, just steep it for about 30 minutes at about 150 - 160. Mainly all you're looking to get out of it is the flavor, armoma and color. It will darken the brew (40L IIRC)
add some Irish Moss to the boil (1 teaspoon at 15 minutes left)
maybe some malto dextrin (8oz?) or head enhancer - ask at the LHBS about it
 
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cbird01

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Does the maltodextrine give mouthfeel/body without adding any sweetness. I want to avoid any lingering sweetness in this beer.
 
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cbird01

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I posted the recipe to another forum and got some feedback. It is interesting to cross post(teamwork!) I think they have some interesting points that may hone in on the style I am looking for. Maybe I will call it "Almost Pilsner Ale"

I told them "I will settle for clean, dry and smooth any style (original aim was Czech Pils). The relatives are macrobeer drinkers but they will stray. I did want the hop flavor to be present(I want to stretch these macros a bit), but very balanced bitterness and no lingering sweetness is key. "

FEEDBACK:

"If you weren't planning to already, I'd consider making a healthy starter, and make sure to aerate it well, as well. With such low bitterness, if your beer failed to attenuate well, you'd have a very noticeable sweetness to it. So basically you want to make sure the yeast go to town, so a good starter and oxygen rich wort are ideal. The maltodextrin is an interesting choice...do you think it might make the beer thicker than it need be? If these are macro drinkers, they probably would welcome a thinner mouthfeel in general. Not necessarily, but its something to consider. Personally, I'd probably go the other direction...adding a bit of honey or cane sugar to provide more complete attenuation, and lighter mouthfeel.

I hope they like it! sounds good."
_________________

"I would lean towards, on the hop schedule, keep the Tett for bittering, but using the Saaz around 10 minutes for subtle flavour and aroma and losing the hallertauer altogether. It sounds like a nice, interesting noble hop beer, but it might be overly hoppy (I know, given the recipe, that hardly sounds possible to us brewers) for the palates of the uninitiated. I find that BMC drinkers tend to be more put off by hops than any other component. I think keeping the Saaz in will make sure they still can notice it, but on a more subtle level so they aren't whacked across the face with noble hop aroma. Or, lol, you can dry hop half the batch...or just put a hop cone in half the bottles as you fill them, some for them, some for you!"

---------------------------

As a rule of thumb it is better to brew at the yeast's lower temp range and not the upper. I'd go back to an ale yeast.



What do you guys think?

I was hoping to stay with the WLP 810, since it specifically says retains lager characteristics up to 65 deg. Usually my limit is 65 with a wet towel and fan, but it has cooled down a bit here in AZ, so I think I may be able to push it down to 63. Profile for yeast says temp range 50-65.
 

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