How to use Brett???

[Morrey]

I am experienced in lacto sours but not in the use of Brett to make a more complex and interesting beer. I have found that Omega Labs provides the best lacto that has given me reliable success rates. Naturally, I look to Omega for the Brett I'll plan to try. They produce "All the Bretts" which includes multiple strains of Brett.

I plan to brew a Saison, pitch Belle Saison yeast, and let it ferment out clean until completion which may be around 1.006. NOW, if I rack to carboy and pitch the Brett pouch, what will I be getting in terms of a finished beer and time to get there?

Will the Brett contribute to ANY souring at all? I know I will get funky, fruity and interesting flavors, but how is this all going to play out in the finished product? Do I need to lightly lacto sour the wort before hopping and boiling?

Sorry for all the questions....we all have to start somewhere. THANKS!!!

 

[burninator]

Depends on what you want, of course, but the brett shouldn't provide any actual sourness. That said, it may give the impression of tartness, when combined with your hop flavors and metabolic byproducts.

I've done this, in particular, a couple of times, and my it's taken a couple of months in secondary to reach terminal gravity. That's using a highly attenuative primary yeast, as you're doing here.

Kettle souring and boiling sounds like a great approach, if you want some tartness and funk.

 

[Morrey]

Depends on what you want, of course, but the brett shouldn't provide any actual sourness. That said, it may give the impression of tartness, when combined with your hop flavors and metabolic byproducts.

I've done this, in particular, a couple of times, and my it's taken a couple of months in secondary to reach terminal gravity. That's using a highly attenuative primary yeast, as you're doing here.

Kettle souring and boiling sounds like a great approach, if you want some tartness and funk.

Interesting. I'm glad you responded.

I suppose since I've not used Brett before, I am not sure what I'm looking for, or what to expect using Brett for that matter.

I love making Gose sours so that is a known commodity to me. But, as we all know, a Gose is pretty two dimensional lacking complexity and/or "funk".

I am hoping that Brett will simply add some interesting notes in a fully attenuated Saison if pitched once fermented and in the secondary. To add a sourness, I could lightly sour with lacto, hop and boil, ferment out, then add Brett. Humm....would this be decent?

 

[specharka]

I would strongly recommend pitching your Brettanomyces strain in your primary vessel. Brett grows at an incredibly slow rate compared to Saccharomyces and will take ages to attenuate and produce the effects you're looking for. There are plenty of saison-Brett blends on the market which will provide an excellent balance of tart and funky character (WY3031, WLP670, OYL-210, OYL-211, OYL-212). Not to mention, Belle Saison is incredibly attenuative by itself and won't leave many residual sugars for the Brett to feed on.

Pitch your yeast blend around 65-70F, allow it to free rise, and gradually ramp the temperature up to 85F over 5-7 days. Within 3 months you should have a deliciously tart saison with plenty of barnyard funk. It won't be a full face pucker, but you can get quite tart using this method -- I've made a few Brett beers that verged on Berliner Weisse sour territory with no LAB whatsoever.

Most of my saison Brett beers have finished around 1.005-1.007, FYI. Wouldn't want them to finish any lower than that.

 

[Morrey]

I would strongly recommend pitching your Brettanomyces strain in your primary vessel. Brett grows at an incredibly slow rate compared to Saccharomyces and will take ages to attenuate and produce the effects you're looking for. There are plenty of saison-Brett blends on the market which will provide an excellent balance of tart and funky character (WY3031, WLP670, OYL-210, OYL-211, OYL-212). Not to mention, Belle Saison is incredibly attenuative by itself and won't leave many residual sugars for the Brett to feed on.

Pitch your yeast blend around 65-70F, allow it to free rise, and gradually ramp the temperature up to 85F over 5-7 days. Within 3 months you should have a deliciously tart saison with plenty of barnyard funk. It won't be a full face pucker, but you can get quite tart using this method -- I've made a few Brett beers that verged on Berliner Weisse sour territory with no LAB whatsoever.

Most of my saison Brett beers have finished around 1.005-1.007, FYI. Wouldn't want them to finish any lower than that.

This is a great post!

 

[beergolf]

There are many ways to do it. Brett does not need a lot of residual sugars to work. In fact if you watch the Chad Yacobson videos on brett, he mentions that very point. He brews his beer, lets it ferment out and then adds the brett. That is what I do and get very good results.

Here watch these. They are long, but will give you anything you want to know about brett.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AjVOzBtE27Y[/ame]

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Swv294Xkbq8[/ame]

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9FtfPKRBUhA[/ame]

 

[specharka]

There are many ways to do it. Brett does not need a lot of residual sugars to work. In fact if you watch the Chad Yacobson videos on brett, he mentions that very point. He brews his beer, lets it ferment out and then adds the brett. That is what I do and get very good results.

Here watch these. They are long, but will give you anything you want to know about brett.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AjVOzBtE27Y

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Swv294Xkbq8

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9FtfPKRBUhA

Isn't that a bit ironic, considering that Crooked Stave only uses Brettanomyces in their oak foeders (and doesn't have their own brewhouse)? Most breweries do not use Brett in their steel conicals for fear of contaminating their pipelines. As a homebrewer we have the luxury of mixed primary fermentations without issue.

I don't think there's any real issue with using Brettanomyces as a secondary strain, just not as convenient, in my experience. I think it would be interesting to taste a side-by-side experiment to see what differences can be observed from pitching Brettanomyces to primary vs secondary.

 

[beergolf]

The great thing about brewing is that there are many different ways to so things. Each is different but there really is no one way. I hardly make a saison anymore without adding some brett. Brett as a primary strain is too clean for my tastes. Pitched with some sach in the primary works well though. But, I like to ferment my brews out and then add the brett in the secondary. Again, no right or wrong, just different approaches.

Brew on.

 

[Morrey]

The great thing about brewing is that there are many different ways to so things. Each is different but there really is no one way. I hardly make a saison anymore without adding some brett. Brett as a primary strain is too clean for my tastes. Pitched with some sach in the primary works well though. But, I like to ferment my brews out and then add the brett in the secondary. Again, no right or wrong, just different approaches.

Brew on.

I just finished watching the videos by Chad Yakobson. Very information, of course as you mentioned, his way is one of several ways.

Being that I am not sure what various steps/methods will yield me, I am simply going to have to dive in and get a feel.

During this thread, I called my buddy who is a retail craft brewer and also owns a LHBS. He confirms there are several ways to do a Brett. He suggests I start out simple and pitch WY3031 as a Saison sacch/brett blend. I'll brew a 5G batch and ferment it out in a 6G carboy so I can dedicate this vessel for the long term. I am unsure how much krausen this will create, but a BO tube should be adequate. It will ferment in my closet being a dark environment at 73F. This will give me a start and see what I end up with.

I'd also like to eventually try a lightly pre-soured (lacto) Saison wort before hopping and boiling, then using sacch first in primary, followed by brett in secondary. Of course my skill level will increase as I try things, and even if I fail, I'll learn the best approach.

I'll first try the WY3031 in a simple Saison recipe and see how this goes, then advance from here.

 

[beergolf]

WY3031 is a nice yeast blend. Very simple and a good way to get a feel for working with brett. Just be sure to give it plenty of time to work.

 

[Morrey]

WY3031 is a nice yeast blend. Very simple and a good way to get a feel for working with brett. Just be sure to give it plenty of time to work.

I will. Not having any sort of experience to base my time line on, if I ferment at 73F, what is typical timing to reach a suitable OG. In the case of a Saison with sacch/brett mix, is this my typical range of 1.006 or so?

I also plan to rack to keg and control my carb volume with CO2. From there, I'll use my beer gun and bottle into bombers. Understanding that brett will continue to get funkier during conditioning, what is a reasonable time frame to expect that the beer will be nice? Of course I understand it will continue to get better as it ages. Also, should I leave it in ambient temps for aging?

 

[Aristotelian]

No, it will not contribute to souring. It will continue to dry out the beer and contribute a distinctive taste. I would recommend getting to a bottle store and trying a couple of brett bottles just to get a sense of what you are going for. Bruery makes a Saison Rue with brett that is similar to what you are describing. Orval is also a classic.

 

[Morrey]

No, it will not contribute to souring. I would recommend getting to a bottle store and trying a couple of brett bottles just to get a sense of what you are going for. Bruery makes a Saison Rue with brett that is similar to what you are describing. Orval is also a classic.

Agreed. This will give me a taste profile or a target of sorts.

I visited Wicked Weed Funkatorium in Asheville NC and took an extended brewery tour. We discussed producing beer with Brett which I am crazy about their Brett beers. Of course a full blown barrel aging process is over my pay grade so to speak. Just learning.

 

[worlddivides]

Personally, I feel that brett added after primary fermentation by sacch does not add any sourness/tartness. It primarily just adds "funk." I think of Orval of a great example of a beer fermented with sacch then further attenuated with Brett. There is very little tartness at all. On the other hand, I find that beers fermented 100% with brett do have a very distinct sourness/tartness to them. I know people always vehemently say "Brett doesn't create any sourness at all!" But... it does. Not in the same way as lactic acid-producing bacteria do, but if you have a simple blonde ale 100% fermented with brett, it has this tangy tartness to it that you definitely would not have at all with sacch. But, at the same time, I think beers 100% fermented with brett have little to zero funk. They tend to be extremely "clean"-tasting. But 100% brett-fermented beers are a very recent thing, and that characteristic brett "funk" comes from brett being relatively underpitched into a beer already fermented with sacch.

 

[Morrey]

Personally, I feel that brett added after primary fermentation by sacch does not add any sourness/tartness. It primarily just adds "funk." I think of Orval of a great example of a beer fermented with sacch then further attenuated with Brett. There is very little tartness at all. On the other hand, I find that beers fermented 100% with brett do have a very distinct sourness/tartness to them. I know people always vehemently say "Brett doesn't create any sourness at all!" But... it does. Not in the same way as lactic acid-producing bacteria do, but if you have a simple blonde ale 100% fermented with brett, it has this tangy tartness to it that you definitely would not have at all with sacch. But, at the same time, I think beers 100% fermented with brett have little to zero funk. They tend to be extremely "clean"-tasting. But 100% brett-fermented beers are a very recent thing, and that characteristic brett "funk" comes from brett being relatively underpitched into a beer already fermented with sacch.

Hopefully the WY3031 sacch/brett blend will give some of the best characteristics of each strain. If this is not sour enough (provided the funk is there), I can do a little kettle souring in a batch later on.

 

[Aristotelian]

Personally, I feel that brett added after primary fermentation by sacch does not add any sourness/tartness. It primarily just adds "funk." I think of Orval of a great example of a beer fermented with sacch then further attenuated with Brett. There is very little tartness at all. On the other hand, I find that beers fermented 100% with brett do have a very distinct sourness/tartness to them. I know people always vehemently say "Brett doesn't create any sourness at all!" But... it does. Not in the same way as lactic acid-producing bacteria do, but if you have a simple blonde ale 100% fermented with brett, it has this tangy tartness to it that you definitely would not have at all with sacch. But, at the same time, I think beers 100% fermented with brett have little to zero funk. They tend to be extremely "clean"-tasting. But 100% brett-fermented beers are a very recent thing, and that characteristic brett "funk" comes from brett being relatively underpitched into a beer already fermented with sacch.

I did say above "no sourness" but I agree with this. It is more that brett further dries out the beer, which removes more sugars that would otherwise cancel out the underlying tartness of the beer. I don't think the brett itself produces any sourness, but I could be wrong there.

 

[worlddivides]

I did say above "no sourness" but I agree with this. It is more that brett further dries out the beer, which removes more sugars that would otherwise cancel out the underlying tartness of the beer. I don't think the brett itself produces any sourness, but I could be wrong there.

Except that I don't think beers dried out via brett taste particularly tart or sour.

100% brett-fermented beers generally attenuate just like 100% sacch fermented beers. In fact, 100% brett-fermented beers oftentimes finish between 1.010 and 1.013, whereas a beer fermented with sacch that had brett added around 1.010-1.013 might ferment down as low as 1.000. But I think it's the 100% brett-fermented beers that have a very noticeable tartness to them.

 

[Morrey]

So I'll have a better understanding of my goal and direction, I plan to buy a couple of beers that (hopefully) may help me out some. I'll buy the Orval and the Saison Rue from Bruery. If you note any others that may be similar to what the WY3031 blend will produce, please let me know so to include that on my shopping list.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I have brewed 3031 twice now. It's not a sour but a nice dry fruity saison. I have pitched Brett C as primary (only) yeast it was very dry and fruity. If added fruit to it and it will sour in about 6 months. It's not a lacto sour.

I would think you'd like a kettle soured beer that you boil and then pitch sac yeast the add Brett c or brux after primary. It will take time to bring out the Brett , 6-12 months in my opinion.

You may want to consider making a saison and pitching some Brett in secondary. Making a kettle soured gose and then blending the two at different rates to determine what level of sour your looking for. I have a few barrels-1 is a lambic. On is a solara of saison , tripple and Brett brux and C. I have another barrel of east coast bug farm. I often blend them and may even pitch a blend on some fruit.

The point is you'll add several layers of creativity to your brewing and you can enjoy the ride.

I highly suggest you search out American Sours from Brewers publication. You can also read his blog at http://www.themadfermentationist.com/?m=1
He's got some well researched and documented ideas in the book. Micheal is doing some great stuff and consults at Modern Times brewery.

 

[Aristotelian]

So I'll have a better understanding of my goal and direction, I plan to buy a couple of beers that (hopefully) may help me out some. I'll buy the Orval and the Saison Rue from Bruery. If you note any others that may be similar to what the WY3031 blend will produce, please let me know so to include that on my shopping list.

You can also get the New Belgium Fat Funk & Friends collaboration pack. At least two of them are brewed with different strains of brett. I don't think they are particularly good, but it is interesting because you can isolate exactly what the brett adds since it is brewed with the exact same beer as the original Fat Tire.

 

[JKaranka]

I brewed a stock ale with Brett C recently. Typical British ale yeast followed by Brett C on day 5. Bottled after 4 months with a smaller priming addition. After 6 months it is dry, but the flavour is definitively in line with a regular British ale. You can tell the body is thinner, the head lasts less time and it sort of bubbles in a different way. The only thing that points to Brett is the aroma having that hay and pineapple blend. If you have lots of imagination you could say the dryness is some light level of tartness (it probably is more acidic than without Brett, but not by much).

I really like the stuff. I gave some to my in-law and he thought it was just a typical strong ale, a bit like Bishop's Finger on steroids.

 

[Morrey]

You can also get the New Belgium Fat Funk & Friends collaboration pack. At least two of them are brewed with different strains of brett. I don't think they are particularly good, but it is interesting because you can isolate exactly what the brett adds since it is brewed with the exact same beer as the original Fat Tire.

This being the case, I can do sample cups against the original Fat Tire and this will be an ideal way to get a feel for the brett influence.

 

[Morrey]

I have brewed 3031 twice now. It's not a sour but a nice dry fruity saison. I have pitched Brett C as primary (only) yeast it was very dry and fruity. If added fruit to it and it will sour in about 6 months. It's not a lacto sour.

I would think you'd like a kettle soured beer that you boil and then pitch sac yeast the add Brett c or brux after primary. It will take time to bring out the Brett , 6-12 months in my opinion.

You may want to consider making a saison and pitching some Brett in secondary. Making a kettle soured gose and then blending the two at different rates to determine what level of sour your looking for. I have a few barrels-1 is a lambic. On is a solara of saison , tripple and Brett brux and C. I have another barrel of east coast bug farm. I often blend them and may even pitch a blend on some fruit.

The point is you'll add several layers of creativity to your brewing and you can enjoy the ride.

I highly suggest you search out American Sours from Brewers publication. You can also read his blog at http://www.themadfermentationist.com/?m=1
He's got some well researched and documented ideas in the book. Micheal is doing some great stuff and consults at Modern Times brewery.

I bought American Sours by Tonsmeire and have just opened it to start the read. My LHBS says the WY3031 I bought is only seasonally available so I may be forced to look for options.

I'd really like to combine funky with a lacto sour, so the 3031 is just a test run for me. If I do a Saison with a light lacto sour, will I get best results from co-pitching a sacch and brett in primary, or go sacch in primary and brett in secondary?

I'll start reading Michael's sour book, so hopefully his writings will be helpful in my direction.

 

[Aristotelian]

I bought American Sours by Tonsmeire and have just opened it to start the read. My LHBS says the WY3031 I bought is only seasonally available so I may be forced to look for options.

I'd really like to combine funky with a lacto sour, so the 3031 is just a test run for me. If I do a Saison with a light lacto sour, will I get best results from co-pitching a sacch and brett in primary, or go sacch in primary and brett in secondary?

I'll start reading Michael's sour book, so hopefully his writings will be helpful in my direction.

For funky and sour, Jolly Pumpkin makes great beers and I have heard their dregs produce great results. If memory serves he talks about both co-pitching their dregs (which mimics their process of pitching Belgian yeast and then aging in barrels with the bacteria) or simply pitching their dregs from the beginning. Have not done it myself but their brewer was on Can You Brew It and gave a great interview on how they make their beers.

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/post1605/

 

[ophillium]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here: mash temp matters. If you mash at ~150 F the sacch will be able to break down most sugars, leaving less for the brett to chew on. Your batch would therefore exhibit more strictly-saison characteristics. Mashing higher (~160) will add dextrins to your wort that only the brett can break down, giving your saison a stronger brett character. Since brett takes longer to get going though, you'll need to allow it more time to work (i.e. 8 months to a year). Some will say you don't need that long, but it depends what you want in the final product. It's also worth considering that there are different stages in the brett fermentation process, some of which only kick in around the 8th month.

In my opinion, mashing high, pitching both sacch and brett in primary, and leaving it for a full calendar year is the best way to get a crisp, complex, harmonious saison with brett. I can do this because I have enough storage space, carboys and patience. Shortcuts in process can shave months off your production schedule, but will leave you with a tangibly different final product. For that reason I think it's good to know what you're getting from each, and the only way to figure that out is through experience.

Happy brewing friend.

 

[Kevin-watkins]

I've done Saison and fermentation temp of 71 is to low. Most Brett and Saison specific yeast I believe call for temps in the high 80s or low 90s. I learned the hard way that 70s temp range the critters fall asleep to soon. Had to strap on a water bed heater to get the temp back up for it to finish.

 

[Morrey]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here: mash temp matters. If you mash at ~150 F the sacch will be able to break down most sugars, leaving less for the brett to chew on. Your batch would therefore exhibit more strictly-saison characteristics. Mashing higher (~160) will add dextrins to your wort that only the brett can break down, giving your saison a stronger brett character. Since brett takes longer to get going though, you'll need to allow it more time to work (i.e. 8 months to a year). Some will say you don't need that long, but it depends what you want in the final product. It's also worth considering that there are different stages in the brett fermentation process, some of which only kick in around the 8th month.

In my opinion, mashing high, pitching both sacch and brett in primary, and leaving it for a full calendar year is the best way to get a crisp, complex, harmonious saison with brett. I can do this because I have enough storage space, carboys and patience. Shortcuts in process can shave months off your production schedule, but will leave you with a tangibly different final product. For that reason I think it's good to know what you're getting from each, and the only way to figure that out is through experience.

Happy brewing friend.

I fully understand your mash temp advice, and it is a very good and important point. My limited understanding of brett is that it can consume long chain sugars vs sacch which mostly feeds on short chain. Higher mash temp...more brett influence....but needs more time.

Long term I plan to do the whole 5G operation in a new 6G carboy. I use carboys on a limited basis, and I have a new one I don't mind using long term. Now, temp control becomes a question. Upstairs is not currently heated or cooled. Summers and fall warm, winter and spring somewhat cooler but SC Southern climate is always temperate. If I stopper the carboy with a BO tube into a starsan jug, I just need to leave this carboy alone and check on it next spring when the bears come from hibernation (figuratively). Question is how this ambient rainbow of temps will play into my finished long term beer. Right now thru Nov - 80's upstairs. Winter is high 60's - low 70's as ambient heat rises. Nothing extreme but it will vary. Is this a problem???

 

[Dcpcooks]

I bought American Sours by Tonsmeire and have just opened it to start the read. My LHBS says the WY3031 I bought is only seasonally available so I may be forced to look for options.



I'd really like to combine funky with a lacto sour, so the 3031 is just a test run for me. If I do a Saison with a light lacto sour, will I get best results from co-pitching a sacch and brett in primary, or go sacch in primary and brett in secondary?



I'll start reading Michael's sour book, so hopefully his writings will be helpful in my direction.

White labs has Brett c year round FYI. If all your gear has lacto or sour bugs you can pitch it all at once. If your looking to keep some of your fermentations clean I'd pitch in secondary.

 

[Dcpcooks]

As to mash temp, you can give the Brett more long chain sugars with a higher mash temp. I've used that technique in conjunction with less attenuating yeast strains to leave goodies for the Brett.

Don't worry to much about temps with Brett. I store all my barrels in my garage. I'm north of Chicago and we get pretty chilly up here. I have a small heater and it's a cinder block and brick garage but it can get down to 45-50 over the winter. I always enjoy watching the barrels spring back to life when things get warm in the summer. The barrels are so well established that I can just add fresh wort and they will ferment in no time.

 

[Morrey]

Bringing back this thread as I just kegged and carbed the Saison we discussed in this thread using Wyeast 3031 last Sep. The beer was close to 6 months in secondary and is a very drinkable Saison. I don't detect a tremendous Brett influence in this beer and it really is more sacch like than brett like at all. I know the brett was in there as I'd hear an occasional off gassing blow off tube bubble every so often for several months so I know the brett was slowly chugging away.

My goal is to make another this spring when the temps will be a bit warm ambient since I don't want to tie up a ferm chamber for 6 mos for one beer. My biggest change is going to mash at higher temps than I did at 152F for this one in an effort to control the sugar chains to give the brett more to work with after the sacch winds down. I suppose this is the basic change that will give me more brett influence unless anyone thinks of something else I can do to ramp up the brett influence?

 

[coypoo]

Some people have mentioned that co-pitching the sacc and brett at the same time may help the brett be more expressive because there's more for them to munch on when pitched early like that

 

[Murphys_Law]

Bringing back this thread as I just kegged and carbed the Saison we discussed in this thread using Wyeast 3031 last Sep. The beer was close to 6 months in secondary and is a very drinkable Saison. I don't detect a tremendous Brett influence in this beer and it really is more sacch like than brett like at all. I know the brett was in there as I'd hear an occasional off gassing blow off tube bubble every so often for several months so I know the brett was slowly chugging away.

My goal is to make another this spring when the temps will be a bit warm ambient since I don't want to tie up a ferm chamber for 6 mos for one beer. My biggest change is going to mash at higher temps than I did at 152F for this one in an effort to control the sugar chains to give the brett more to work with after the sacch winds down. I suppose this is the basic change that will give me more brett influence unless anyone thinks of something else I can do to ramp up the brett influence?

I just brewed my first Saison using Brett C and I'm using a cheap ferm wrap and Inkbird for temp controller. One day in and it's holding temp for me. I am sure you can get both for ~$50 which may be a good investment if this is something you plan on doing regularly moving forward.

 

[RmikeVT]

Bringing back a dead thread. I used Omega All The Bretts in a Golden Strong style beer, pitched in secondary back in November. I tasted for the first time June 20th and it 100% has a touch of sourness I would expect from more of a bacteria based sour. It was delightful although a bit watery, but I think that will resolve with carbonation.