How to proceed? 2nd pitch or not?

[Jaustink83]

I am brewing a high abv beer. Extract brewing. All gravity measurements with a hydrometer.

My SG 1.120
Recipe goal SG was 1.130
So I was a bit low to start.

Pitched 2 packs of us05 safeale.

10 days into ferm - 1.040
13 days into ferm (today) - 1.036
Recipe goal FG is 1.030

Today I also added some bourbon soaked oak chips after I took the sample and pretty much all of the head krausen seems to be gone at this point.

My question... Am I good to just let it go another week or so to meld with the oak and bourbon and hope the FG drops another .006 or should I pitch more us05 ale yeast?

Could pitching this late hurt the flavor or take the fg too low? I also read that high ABV brews can kill the yeast prematurely, so do I needto repitch to get more yeast active now to support bottle conditioning?

 

[VikeMan]

What was your grain bill, mash temp, and mash length? And are you measuring with a hydrometer or a refractometer? (If the latter, are you using a refractometer calculator to adjust?)

 

[bracconiere]

i've never restarted a fermentation by repitching yeast, and i have tried. have had luck adding nutes with sugar washes. and oak chips could supply them...just my expereince, i'd let it ride...


you're already ~11% ABV, so the yeast are having to get tough...

 

[schmurf]

It's an extract brew. No I don't think pitching another pack would do anything. Let it wait a week more. You're close enough to FG, if it will get even closer then yay

 

[bracconiere]

It's an extract brew.

good point, which would make it hard to miss a OG. so it could be at 12.7% ABV and even harder on the yeast...

 

[Jaustink83]

What was your grain bill, mash temp, and mash length? And are you measuring with a hydrometer or a refractometer? (If the latter, are you using a refractometer calculator to adjust?)

Grain Bill
• 5 lb Light DME
• 5 lb Light DME (Flame-Out)
• 3.3 lb Munich LME
• 1.5 lb Roasted Barley
• 1 lb Chocolate Malt
• 8 oz Caramel 60L
• 4 oz Black Malt •
• 1.5 oz Dark American Oak Chips

• 60 min 1.00oz Millennium
• 45 min 1.00oz Millennium

Mash temp 170F for 60mins

All gravity measured with hydrometer.

 

[VikeMan]

It looks like you got 70% apparent attenuation from a relatively unfermentable wort. It's possible you hit the wall with US-05's ABV tolerance, but even if you hadn't, it may not have attenuated much more. That said, I would wait 2-3 days and confirm that the FG is really final.

 

[bracconiere]

Grain Bill
• 5 lb Light DME
• 5 lb Light DME (Flame-Out)
• 3.3 lb Munich LME
• 1.5 lb Roasted Barley
• 1 lb Chocolate Malt
• 8 oz Caramel 60L
• 4 oz Black Malt •
• 1.5 oz Dark American Oak Chips

• 60 min 1.00oz Millennium
• 45 min 1.00oz Millennium

Mash temp 170F for 60mins

All gravity measured with hydrometer.

the roast barley wouldn't have converted. could explain both the less OG, and high FG?

edit: in the future, i'd recomend adding 1/2-1lb pale malt to a partial/steeping mash like this....and keep the temp at ~150f

 

[odie]

I wouldn't even bothered doing a gravity check until a month with a OG like that. I've done a few in that range with a single US-05. It will do it, give it time...this ain't no sissy beer.

 

[Jaustink83]

Will definately let it go at least a week more but since I added the oak chips I am hesitant to let it sit on the wood longer than a week. Many posts talk about tannins and astringent flavors getting extracted beyond 5-7 days on wood.

I've got a system setup to keep it 66-68F. Should I allow it to warm a bit more to keep the yeast going?

 

[DannyBoy270]

Wouldn't pitch anymore yeast. If anything crank the temp a little more and give her a gentle spin/shake to get the yeast back in suspension, but honestly I doubt you're gonna really notice 6pts in a beer that big. Good luck

 

[odie]

I didn't catch the 170' mash...that probably hurt conversion so more unfermentables.

You don't say what you are making. Style/type. I leave oak chips in the fermenter for almost a month without issues. think about barrel aged beers at your local brewpub...they sit for months in an oak barrel.

 

[Jaustink83]

Sorry, Goose Island Bourbon County Stout clone. Imperial Stout.

 

[Beerstein]

I didn't catch the 170' mash...that probably hurt conversion so more unfermentables.

You don't say what you are making. Style/type. I leave oak chips in the fermenter for almost a month without issues. think about barrel aged beers at your local brewpub...they sit for months in an oak barrel.

Some oak chips are more potent than others. Mileage may vary. I usually boil my oak chips (mostly cubes) for an hour to reduce the tannins, then they can sit in the beer a bit longer.

 

[VikeMan]

I didn't catch the 170' mash...that probably hurt conversion so more unfermentables.

There were no base malts, so no conversion (at any temperature). OTOH, there would be very little starch in those specialty malts, so not much to convert anyway. But they should have given up their preconverted sugars/dextrins/caramelization products, etc.

 

[odie]

There were no base malts, so no conversion (at any temperature).

ah...ya got me there...lol

 

[bracconiere]

I didn't catch the 170' mash...that probably hurt conversion so more unfermentables.

it was a steeping batch. with some unmalted grain.

there would be very little starch in those specialty malts,

(beat me to it)
but beersmith entry for roast barley gives it a potential of 1.025? so there would be unconverted gelatenized starch in the wort, i think?

 

[Jaustink83]

If it helps here are the instructions I have been following

https://homebrewsupply.com/content/...es Extract/EX_INS_BourbonCountyStoutClone.pdf
And yes I know there are 2 items on the grain list listed twice. I do not know if that is an accident or on purpose. The place I ordered it from milled and combined all the grains into 1 bag so I have no way to know.

 

[VikeMan]

(beat me to it)
but beersmith entry for roast barley gives it a potential of 1.025? so there would be unconverted gelatenized starch in the wort, i think?

Very little starch in Roasted Barley. Per Greg Doss' data, it's only about 18% as attenuable as pilsner malt. But since it provides (pound per pound) about 68% as much extract (OG points) as pilsner, those gravity points are largely coming from something other than pristine starches (that can be converted to fermentable sugars), i.e. they are largely coming from burnt/caramelized starches/sugars, and proteins, etc. But yes, there are indeed some unconverted starches in every "specialty" (crystal/dark roasted) malt...but not a lot, especially in the case of RB.

 

[bracconiere]

18% as attenuable as pilsner malt

that's what i thought? and without enzymes proper temp to shorten the starch chains, even less fermentable. but could explain the higher FG?

thus no need for a second yeast pitch? we're in agreement?

 

[jerrylotto]

If you have a lot of oligiosaccharides (short chain dextrins) left you could add some glucoamylase. More common with wine making but useful for breaking down some of the unfermentables and making them more accessible to the yeast.

PS - I've brewed an all grain version of this about 20 times and hit an FG of 1.022-1.023 regularly.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Might be easier to throw the kit instructions out than to throw glucoamylase in the wort.

A couple of ingredients were duplicated. US-05 has a published limit of 11% ABV. Not exactly a good starting point.

There's are longer topic from around 2010 that explored the differences between steeping and mashing (including a number of experimental batches). Based on that topic, if the kit recipe was created by a simple conversion of base malts to DME/LME, it is possible that the listed OG/FG numbers are wrong.

@odie 's observation that US-05 can take a while to reach FG is backed by some information provided by Fermentis (hopefully it's still in one of the charts in the Tips & Tricks PDF).

On the other hand, it's likely that a enjoyable beer was made.

 

[jerrylotto]

I've actually gotten up to 13.5% ABV with US-05. Yeast health is important so you have to carefully control pH ensure sufficient Ca++ and manage wort fermentation temperature but it can be done.

You can buy glucoamylase in powdered form, and it is as easy to add as anything else.

 

[Beer666]

I was in a similar situation once and added some glucoamylase thinking i could drop another 10 points. Went wrong and the beer dropped another 25 points down to 1008. Ended up 15.5% and still have not gotten around to bottling it.

 

[jerrylotto]

The recommended addition rate is 3-5g/hl and I'm sure you are not brewing at hectoliter scale About 0.5 g is appropriate for a 5g batch.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I've actually gotten up to 13.5% ABV with US-05. Yeast health is important so you have to carefully control pH ensure sufficient Ca++ and manage wort fermentation temperature but it can be done.

As a reminder, we're in the Beginners Beer Brewing Forum and the original topic was about an extract kit.

That being said, if you have more details on the advanced techniques you are using (and ideally, details on how they have been successfully applied to extract kits), people are listening. (The additional information in #25 was a good start).

 

[jerrylotto]

Didn't notice the forum, sorry Happy to try to answer questions though.

 

[bracconiere]

I was in a similar situation once and added some glucoamylase thinking i could drop another 10 points. Went wrong and the beer dropped another 25 points down to 1008. Ended up 15.5% and still have not gotten around to bottling it.

yeah, that's why held my tounge saying that. gluco goes DRY! if anything, if we want enzymes, i think alpha amylase would be appropriate, would break down the gelenatized starch that the roast barley added...but not go totally dry?

honestly though, i'm thinking 6 points, and 1%abv is not a big enough difference to worry about?

edit: it's already a sipping beer! maybe a bit sweet, like fortified wine

 

[bracconiere]

Didn't notice the forum, sorry Happy to try to answer questions though.

(yeah occassionaly i'll be reading, and almost say something...but my spidy sense wonders...wait is this BREW SCIENCE! lol)