How to get brewers yeast to like potato and flour

[shopkins1994]

Hi Everyone. I was wondering how to get brewers yeast to like potato and flour as a ferment? I am using generic ale yeast from Mr. Beer cans for my test so I don't have a specific strain to name. For my test I boil 100 grams of potatoes and mix it with 25 grams of white flour and add 300 grams of water and then add 1/2 tsp yeast. Fermentation is really really slow. If I use RC212 wine yeast fermentation starts really slow but 24 hours later it is really fast. It's not the case with brewers yeast.

Sam

 

[GuldTuborg]

Unless you somehow converted the starches, I'm surprised there is much to ferment at all. I can't imagine what it would take to get sacch yeast acclimated to fermenting starches. Most likely a lot of genetic shift.

 

[danath34]

yeah I agree with above. you're going to need to use either enzymes or malt (to provide the enzymes). Otherwise, you won't get much fermentation. Are there any yeast strains that can break down starch? I dunno. Don't think so though. I'd look up the processes for rice and potato wines and see what they do.

I imagine the bit of fermentation you are seeing now is from what simple carbs may exist in the flour. I don't think anything is really going to happen with all the starches in both the flour and potatoes.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Brett might do some decent work on starches. Otherwise, you need enzymes or bacteria (plus lots of time).

 

[shopkins1994]

The flour should add malt to help break down the starch. The wine strain of yeast works fine with the potato/flour mixture but the brewers yeast does not. I added a teaspoon full of dried malt to the brewers yeast and it picked right up. Not sure what it doesn't like about a potato/flour mixture....

 

[WayFrae]

The flour should add malt to help break down the starch. The wine strain of yeast works fine with the potato/flour mixture but the brewers yeast does not. I added a teaspoon full of dried malt to the brewers yeast and it picked right up. Not sure what it doesn't like about a potato/flour mixture....

Flour is not the same as malt. You would need to add either some enzymes or a malted grain to provide the enzymes to break down the starches. I would imagine what is getting fermented out is the small amount of sugar in the potatoes.

 

[shopkins1994]

Sorry, I meant to say that the flour has the enzymes in it. Millers add enzymes to white flour so that it rises when yeast is added to it when it is baked.

Sam

 

[WayFrae]

Sorry, I meant to say that the flour has the enzymes in it. Millers add enzymes to white flour so that it rises when yeast is added to it when it is baked.

Sam

If you are adding the flour to boiling water I think the heat will kill the enzymes. Maybe you could try cooking the potatoes and then mashing them with the flour at around 150°F? I doub't there are enough enzymes to convert all of the starches. You could try adding some amylase enzyme. It could be interesting but I can't imagine the resulting liquid to taste very good. Good luck!

 

[MindenMan]

I made sourdough many years ago using ale yeast, flour and water. Beano will convert the starches in potatoes to fermentable sugar. There are many low carb lifestyle people that make low carb alcohol drinks as the alcoholdoesn't need to be calorie counted. Rum is said to be zero carbs...

 

[GuldTuborg]

How old are you, out of curiosity?

 

[danath34]

I doubt there are enough enzymes present in flour to get a decent amount of conversion.

I also question what the motive in this is? what's your goal? this definitely doesn't sound like something I'd be drinking

 

[pdxal]

Yeast in bread eats sugars that the baker adds to make the bread rise.
Flour and potato have very little sugars and beer or wine yeast need sugars to ferment, so the starch in both needs to be converted to produce alcohol.
If you want an experiment, try rice wine yeast balls, which contain a mold and yeast. The mold breaks down the starches in the rice and the yeast ferments it. I would imagine it would work with another substrate like potato or wheat flour too. The results, though, might be horrible. The yeast balls are available at Asian markets.

 

[fatcop]

Yeast in bread eats sugars that the baker adds to make the bread rise.
Flour and potato have very little sugars and beer or wine yeast need sugars to ferment, so the starch in both needs to be converted to produce alcohol.
If you want an experiment, try rice wine yeast balls, which contain a mold and yeast. The mold breaks down the starches in the rice and the yeast ferments it. I would imagine it would work with another substrate like potato or wheat flour too. The results, though, might be horrible. The yeast balls are available at Asian markets.

As someone who has been baking much much longer then I have been brewing beer I have to correct this. Many many types of bread have no added sugars. The yeast can convert and/or consume the flour directly. Differing strands of yeast produce enzymes which can break down certain carbohydrates.

That being said... back to the OP... I am actually surprised the Mr. Beer yeast isn't fermenting it very well. I would have guessed the Mr. Beer yeast was closely related to bread yeast given the flavors I experienced fermenting my first Mr. Beer kits. What wine yeast were you using? I have read several times on this forum how wine yeast won't even consume maltose so again this is curious to me.

 

[JLeuch]

Mr beer yeast is standard coopers dry ale least that comes in theire 3.3 pound lme containers, most yeast require a "proof" in warm water for 10 min to be used with flour or potatos so try a starter it should take it on but only time will tell

 

[pdxal]

As someone who has been baking much much longer then I have been brewing beer I have to correct this. Many many types of bread have no added sugars. The yeast can convert and/or consume the flour directly. Differing strands of yeast produce enzymes which can break down certain carbohydrates.

That being said... back to the OP... I am actually surprised the Mr. Beer yeast isn't fermenting it very well. I would have guessed the Mr. Beer yeast was closely related to bread yeast given the flavors I experienced fermenting my first Mr. Beer kits. What wine yeast were you using? I have read several times on this forum how wine yeast won't even consume maltose so again this is curious to me.

I stand corrected.
However, as I understand it the yeast are not fermenting starch, they are fermenting sugars that are in the flour, or added to the dough to assist/speed leavening.
If they were able to break down the starch there would be no need for malting to make beer.
Chinese yeast balls and Koji have a combination of yeast and a mold that converts the starch in the rice that is then fermented. Bacteria may convert starch, and brett does somewhat, but beer and baker's yeast do not to any significant amount.
If you know of a saccaromyces cerevisiae that converts starch to sugar, please post a link, everyone would be interested, myself included. I love learning new things about brewing, as I'm sure you do.

 

[fatcop]

I stand corrected.
However, as I understand it the yeast are not fermenting starch, they are fermenting sugars that are in the flour, or added to the dough to assist/speed leavening.
If they were able to break down the starch there would be no need for malting to make beer.
Chinese yeast balls and Koji have a combination of yeast and a mold that converts the starch in the rice that is then fermented. Bacteria may convert starch, and brett does somewhat, but beer and baker's yeast do not to any significant amount.
If you know of a saccaromyces cerevisiae that converts starch to sugar, please post a link, everyone would be interested, myself included. I love learning new things about brewing, as I'm sure you do.

This is very true I believe and I am not pretending to be a white labs scientist by any means. This ability of the yeast to produce the enzymes is why it's selected as baker's yeast. I have read on these forums that wine yeast is very poor at consuming maltose. The production of one of these enzymes is why adding table sugar is bad, the taste of that enzyme is the cidery flavor brewers dislike. Fermentation off flavors are always desirable in bread though.

 

[WayFrae]

I thought the enzymes are added to the flour during production and not created by the yeast.

 

[fatcop]

There is a small amount of diastatic malt added in American wheat flours to aid in this process, many flours in Europe do not. Italian pizza flour definitely does not have any malt or other enzymes added, and sugar is definitely not allowed in that style of dough. If flour relied on enzymes or sugar, bread would be a much more recent invention.

 

[Dynachrome]

How old are you, out of curiosity?

shopkins1994 - twenty?

I was thinking to myself, "What conditions would cause a person to brew with these ingredients?"

If he gets good results though, I'm wondering how inexpensive it could turn out.

Hooch Thread

Sounds like a large batch of something best made in a prison toilet