how to differentiate between hard cider and apple wine?

[jo.trader]

hello homebrewers!
today i opened my first apple cider bottle, its been carbonating for about 3 weeks or so
and it was great, tastewise, but too damn strong i didnt feel like im drinking
a light regular 4-5% beer.
for the recipe, i used 2 liters of organic apple juice, bread yeast, and maybe like 600 grams of sugar.
i used bread yeast cuz i heard it has low alcohol tolerance and it dont eat all the sugar.
now i have never had a hard cider or apple wine before so i can't tell what the hell am i drinking!

 

[bracconiere]

for the recipe, i used 2 liters of organic apple juice, bread yeast, and maybe like 600 grams of sugar.

LOL, someone else will have to do the math.....

 

[wasully]

They're the same thing. Some people will say if you add a lot of sugar it's a wine(Despite the fact most grape wines do not have added sugar, somehow that association has been made?).

Bread yeast will still probably eat all the sugar. You gotta add a LOT of sugar to end up with residual sweetness. Yeast love simple sugar.

 

[Hanglow]

Yeah, you probably found the limit of that yeasts alcohol tolerance.

Cider= just fermented apple juice
Apple wine= extra fermentables, ie sugar or concentrated juice.

Wine implies strength, like barley wine.

 

[jo.trader]

LOL, someone else will have to do the math.....

Did i mess up that much?

 

[bracconiere]

Did i mess up that much?

i was going to try to do the math but i just added the 600g's sugar to half gallon and got something like 1.120....and add the juice with probably 1.047 or so...and yeah they be some strong stuff....


and for fairness, Welcome! and you'll get it! yeast can only handle about 12-14% most of the time, unless you're using turbo.....this site i believe hosts something called brewer's friend that's useful.....

 

[madscientist451]

for the recipe, i used 2 liters of organic apple juice, bread yeast, and maybe like 600 grams of sugar.
i used bread yeast cuz i heard it has low alcohol tolerance and it dont eat all the sugar.

I put your sugar addition into the Brewer's Friend recipe addition and if you didn't add any additional water your ABV from just the sugar was 15.12%. With the apple juice, your cider had a potential ABV of around 20%. So you are correct in assuming the bread yeast would quit and you'd have a lower ABV drink, but without gravity readings we don't know for sure. If you check the gravity, you'll likely find that you have both high alcohol and some residual sugar. If you let your cider age for a few months the harsh alcohol notes will round off somewhat.
But you can still enjoy your cider now if you'd like,, just make a cocktail with a little unfermented apple juice to bring the ABV down and you'll get a little more apple flavor as well.

 

[Blacksmith1]

General rule of thumb is up to 9% is cider, 10% and above is wine.

EDIT see below

 

[bucketnative]

TTB and IRS have a delineator of 7 % ABV for whether a beverage derived from apple juice (or concentrated apple juice and water) qualifies for the lower "cider" tax rate.

 

[Blacksmith1]

In all honesty that was from memory, and mine has become deficient as I get older. So I will defer to you on this.

 

[bernardsmith]

I know that this is a little harsh, but for the home winemaker I would argue that cider is simply fermented apple juice, apple wine would involve added sugars. So for us cider might be around 6 -7% ABV (a starting gravity of about 1.050)

 

[Hanglow]

In the UK it would be 8.5% as a guide, but I wouldn't use our tax laws to define what cider is!

Basically between 1.2% and 8.5% made of at least 35% pre or post fermentation apple juice by volume with a gravity of at least 1033 degrees.

A pretty low standard for cider I think. It's mainly that loose to satisfy the likes of industrial dreck like Strongbow etc which is a huge industry.

Stronger than that or if it used less juice would be "made wine"

 

[Maylar]

And FWIW I've had bread yeast go to 15% in a JAOM mead.

 

[bmd2k1]

hello homebrewers!
today i opened my first apple cider bottle, its been carbonating for about 3 weeks or so
and it was great, tastewise, but too damn strong i didnt feel like im drinking
a light regular 4-5% beer.
for the recipe, i used 2 liters of organic apple juice, bread yeast, and maybe like 600 grams of sugar.
i used bread yeast cuz i heard it has low alcohol tolerance and it dont eat all the sugar.
now i have never had a hard cider or apple wine before so i can't tell what the hell am i drinking!

For me its all nomenclature - who cares what ya call it -- just as long as U dig it [emoji111]

Cheers [emoji106]

 

[MarkKF]

They're the same thing. Some people will say if you add a lot of sugar it's a wine(Despite the fact most grape wines do not have added sugar, somehow that association has been made?).

Simply put I think Ciders are less than 10% while wines are over 10%. The reason grape wines don’t add sugar is the gravity of grape juice is high enough.

 

[Maylar]

Simply put I think Ciders are less than 10% while wines are over 10%. The reason grape wines don’t add sugar is the gravity of grape juice is high enough.

It's 8% I believe, and it has to do with taxes (in the US). Wine is taxed at a higher rate than cider.

It's interesting to note that in some parts of the world (like Italy), wine is made from grapes and any other fermented fruit is considered cider. What we would call strawberry wine they call strawberry cider.

 

[bernardsmith]

I was reading a paper recently and it referred to three kinds of alcohol. Wine- made by fermenting simple sugars (that would include mead and cider) , beer,which requires transforming carbs into simple sugars and then fermenting the simple sugars - and spirits and which involves concentrating the alcohol made from beer or wine into spririts by removing the water. What the taxman might define as cider and what might be defined as wine is a political issue and has nothing inherently to do with how a product is made. There's wine, beer and spirits. And that would seem to be the only possibilities.

 

[bucketnative]

There's wine, beer and spirits. And that would seem to be the only possibilities.

And my ex-in laws categorized all three as "evils."

 

[bernardsmith]

ah... as in hear no evil, see no evil say no evil...? but there's nothing about drink no evil.

 

[Johnny_M]

Cider is wine and should be treated as such. It should not be brewed like a beer. Just because the SG differs between grapes and apples does not make them different categories of fermented alcohols. As was said above:

Wine- made by fermenting simple sugars (that would include mead and cider)

Regarding the rest of that post a distinction should be made between distilled grain alcohols, distilled juice alcohols, and pure sugar alcohols. And this is done when discussing whiskey, brandy, and rum. (Vodka can be any of the three as it is a neutral spirit, but it's best brewed from rye. A tequila not brewed from a grain is still brewed from a starchy medium like whiskey.)

 

[bernardsmith]

Interesting. What is the distinction that needs to be made when you distill ethanol that is produced from different sugars (grains (ie carbohydrates ), vs simple sugars ie sucrose, fructose, glucose etc)? You heat the water and ethanol mixture to boil off the ethanol from the water and collect the vapors which you then cool and condense as more concentrated ethanol - no matter what the source of sugar was. It's exactly the same process, isn't it? The only distinction that I can see has nothing to do with the sugars involved and everything to do with the kind of still you are using. A pot still will allow more flavor notes to be condensed with the ethanol and a reflux still won't.

 

[Johnny_M]

Interesting. What is the distinction that needs to be made when you distill ethanol that is produced from different sugars (grains (ie carbohydrates ), vs simple sugars ie sucrose, fructose, glucose etc)? You heat the water and ethanol mixture to boil off the ethanol from the water and collect the vapors which you then cool and condense as more concentrated ethanol - no matter what the source of sugar was. It's exactly the same process, isn't it? The only distinction that I can see has nothing to do with the sugars involved and everything to do with the kind of still you are using. A pot still will allow more flavor notes to be condensed with the ethanol and a reflux still won't.

The reason I make this argument is because of the flavor compounds that come over during distillation. If there was no difference aged rum, whiskey, and cavados would taste the same as they are all aged in oak after distillation and blending. But we know whiskey has some flavors rum does not, and cavados has apple flavor that rum nor whiskey could ever hope to attain. I believe that's why there are different names for different spirit types. It could go further to even more distinct labels on certain types of distilled spirits, for example Scotch which has a process not used by Irish whiskey which has a process not used by Bourbon etc, but I think this makes less of a difference. So I guess my argument could be look at as being too specific for what is necessary, but I tried not to reduce it to minute differences in process, just flavor outcomes from starting product.

 

[bernardsmith]

But flavor differences exist even when you ferment grapes: a Riesling does not taste like a Gewurztraminer and an hibiscus wine tastes nothing like a wine made from elderflowers. Processes may affect flavors but if we are talking about essential differences you cannot make ethanol from barley or wheat or rice (grains) using the same process as you can honey or fruit or tree sap but you distill in identical ways whether you are making vodka or apple brandy. The difference between the brandy and the vodka is that with brandy you distill once and with vodka your still effectively distills the distillate several times. If you took your distillate from a pot still and distilled that three or four times you would have taste free vodka. No?

 

[wasully]

I'm no moonshiner, but there are flavorful spirits that are distilled at least twice historically. Including some brandys.

 

[Johnny_M]

But flavor differences exist even when you ferment grapes: a Riesling does not taste like a Gewurztraminer and an hibiscus wine tastes nothing like a wine made from elderflowers. Processes may affect flavors but if we are talking about essential differences you cannot make ethanol from barley or wheat or rice (grains) using the same process as you can honey or fruit or tree sap but you distill in identical ways whether you are making vodka or apple brandy. The difference between the brandy and the vodka is that with brandy you distill once and with vodka your still effectively distills the distillate several times. If you took your distillate from a pot still and distilled that three or four times you would have taste free vodka. No?

There are differences in reflux stills verses pot stills that do change the outcome. Maybe my argument is too specific for what is necessary. I just see such a difference between a pot still whiskey and a pot still brandy that if you are going to separate beer from wine then you might as well separate whiskey from brandy. I am not trying to be obtuse, I just think certain phenols and esters are present or created during fermentation in one that are not in the other and vise versa and this is because of the starting products. If we are just specifically talking about where the alcohol comes from, then there is really only two sources: simple sugar or starch. Anything from a grain or starch base first needs sugar enzymatically extracted before it can be fermented, anything with a simple sugar does not. Thoughts?

 

[bucketnative]

Maybe my argument is too specific for what is necessary. I just see such a difference between a pot still whiskey and a pot still brandy that if you are going to separate beer from wine then you might as well separate whiskey from brandy.

I think you're getting too specific for this thread... Lumping all categories of beer into "beer" and all categories of wine into "wine" is akin to lumping all distilled spirits into "spirits", and therefore appropriate for the post that you initially referenced.

 

[wasully]

Maybe my argument is too specific for what is necessary.

Yeah, you're in a cider forum in a thread wondering what the difference between apple wine and hard cider is.

Not to say it isn't interesting, but maybe the wrong venue and opening.