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How to account for AA% when re-using hops from dry hopping

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just racked an APA off .75oz crystal and .75oz centennial. i'm brewing another this weekend and i'd like to use these hops for my bittering hops, or maybe as first wort hops. anyone know of a way to calculate there potential IBU contribution. even though no AA was isomerized in the dryhopping, i've got to think that some of those compounds were simply left in the beer and are no longer available. any suggestions or links would be great!
 

Iordz

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I have never heard of anybody trying this!
In theory the hops should retain their IBU ratings, but since you dry-hopped they should have very little aroma potential. This is fine because you are looking for the bitterness, not any aroma, so I would say calculate the IBUs by using their normal ratings, just don't expect too much flavor from the addition.
This should, in theory, make sense, however I am no expert and I can't say that it's going to turn out like that.
 

Danek

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Man, that's an interesting idea. In theory I guess the AA components should be intact, but I don't know whether hydrating the hops over a week or so would have a negative effect. The hops are going to be pretty slimey, so there might be a risk that they'd disintegrate in the wort altogether. Though obviously that's unrelated to the question of how effective they'd be for bittering. I'm with Iordz, in that I can't see why you shouldn't calculate IBUs as normal.

Given the hop shortage this is a very intriguing experiment.
 

Glibbidy

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Since you are dry hopping, and there is no heat, there is no isomerization of the hops, as a result the Alpha Acids are not affected by dry hopping. Ballantine's used to re-use their hops all the time as a cost effective measure. Calculate your IBU's just as you normally would.
I mentioned it here recently.
This will work best with whole flowers as opposed to pellets. BE sure to wash, rinse, land lay them flat in a ziplock bag in the freezer if you are not re-using them immediately. Otherwise simply rinse and throw into your kettle.

A brewery friend and I have been discussing the merits of Hop reclamation and are trying to figure out a way to make it work with pellets.
I guarantee you that some small scale brewers are going to start employing this process considering the present shortage of hops.

Good on you for figuring this out. :)
 

david_42

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Just this month, a member brought "Three-step IPA" to a OBC meeting. The first one was made with a standard recipe. The second used all of the hops from the first batch for bittering and flavor, only adding new hops for aroma. Ditto the third. He said draining the wort for the last batch was a pain, the hop volume was over a gallon. Same grain bill, but each was distinctive.

This might be easier if the hops for each addition were bagged. Then you could toss the bittering hops each step.

[I'm fairly certain I've got the facts right, but it was a homebrewers meeting.]
 

Iordz

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This is interesting because I just brewed an IPA that I will be dryhopping. I am going to try reuse the leaf hops that are left over (Chinook), too bad I won't be able to get the pellet hops back.
 

cowgo

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Iordz said:
This is interesting because I just brewed an IPA that I will be dryhopping. I am going to try reuse the leaf hops that are left over (Chinook), too bad I won't be able to get the pellet hops back.
Dry hopping with Chinook? How does that come out?
 

Iordz

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Amazing, but that's because I love chinook! Try Stone AB, they use chinook throughout the brew, it should give you a good idea of what I am going for.
 

CBBaron

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I know the alpha acids are not isomerizatized but that does not mean they have stayed in the hops residue. Are we sure that alpha acids are not water soluble? Is it possible that some of the acids have been rinsed out of the hops?

I don't know the answers but I wouldn't expect the wet hops to have full acid values.
Craig
 
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CBBaron said:
I don't know the answers but I wouldn't expect the wet hops to have full acid values.
that's what i suspected. i don't think they're water soluble, AA are oily. but, you can't convince me that some of it doesn't simply fall into suspension. the hops are sitting in the bottom of the carboy in the fridge and they're still in a beery solution; i'd say about a quart total. i plan to use them as a first wort hop so i'm going to dump the whole mixture into the kettle as im adding my first runnings.

just a quick note about the chinook discussion taking place in the thread: i was chatting with one of the asst. brewers at boulder beer yesterday and he mentioned that chinook is officially GONE. no mas. anheuser busch bought ALL of it this year, and they've contracted ALL of what will be grown in the next few years. i just hope breweries like stone have existing contracts. i'm glad i have an oz or 2 in the freezer and i plan to use it sparingly. boulder uses (used) chinook in hazed and infused, and they're playing around with a couple substitutes, don't recall names though.
 

CBBaron

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SenorWanderer said:
just a quick note about the chinook discussion taking place in the thread: i was chatting with one of the asst. brewers at boulder beer yesterday and he mentioned that chinook is officially GONE. no mas. anheuser busch bought ALL of it this year, and they've contracted ALL of what will be grown in the next few years. i just hope breweries like stone have existing contracts. i'm glad i have an oz or 2 in the freezer and i plan to use it sparingly. boulder uses (used) chinook in hazed and infused, and they're playing around with a couple substitutes, don't recall names though.
Thats sad to hear. I really like Chinook in my hoppy ales. I do have a few oz in the freezer and a rhizome in the ground so hopefully I can do a few more Chinook brews in the next couple of years.
I guess it takes a lot of hops to add a couple IBUs to a few million barrels of Bud. :)
Craig
 

Soulive

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SenorWanderer said:
just a quick note about the chinook discussion taking place in the thread: i was chatting with one of the asst. brewers at boulder beer yesterday and he mentioned that chinook is officially GONE. no mas. anheuser busch bought ALL of it this year, and they've contracted ALL of what will be grown in the next few years. i just hope breweries like stone have existing contracts. i'm glad i have an oz or 2 in the freezer and i plan to use it sparingly. boulder uses (used) chinook in hazed and infused, and they're playing around with a couple substitutes, don't recall names though.
What the hell beer could AB possibly be (mis)using all that Chinook in?!?
 

ohiobrewtus

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Soulive said:
What the hell beer could AB possibly be (mis)using all that Chinook in?!?
That does seem odd. Maybe they use .003 oz of Chinook for bittering in bud/michelob/natural/busch light. That adds up when you brew 10,000 gallons at a time - heck that's almost 2 pounds per 10,000 gallons! :D
 

korndog

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SenorWanderer said:
just a quick note about the chinook discussion taking place in the thread: i was chatting with one of the asst. brewers at boulder beer yesterday and he mentioned that chinook is officially GONE. no mas. anheuser busch bought ALL of it this year, and they've contracted ALL of what will be grown in the next few years. i just hope breweries like stone have existing contracts. i'm glad i have an oz or 2 in the freezer and i plan to use it sparingly. boulder uses (used) chinook in hazed and infused, and they're playing around with a couple substitutes, don't recall names though.
Yep, I was with one of the head brewers from BJ's yesterday and he told me this.
He said others (SN I think) were doing the same with Cascade I believe.
 

Warrior

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SenorWanderer said:
just racked an APA off .75oz crystal and .75oz centennial. i'm brewing another this weekend and i'd like to use these hops for my bittering hops, or maybe as first wort hops. anyone know of a way to calculate there potential IBU contribution. even though no AA was isomerized in the dryhopping, i've got to think that some of those compounds were simply left in the beer and are no longer available. any suggestions or links would be great!
Very interesting and good idea. I'll have to try dry hopping in my next batch of IPA instead of the late aroma addition. I will then try using those hops in the next IPA as the bittering hop. I'll have to try the 2 beers side by side and see how they compare, good innovative thinking!
 
OP
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well i just brewed this beer on monday night. the OG was 1.050. hopping schedule was:

7AAU centennial, first wort, 90min boil
2.6 AAU crystal, first wort, 90min boil
.875 AAU cascade, 20min
2.3 AAU centennial, 20min
.875 AAU cascade, 5min
2.3AAU centennial, 5min

it's made its way down to 1.012 by last night (there aren't many things about brewing i love more than going from pitching to final gravity in 72 hours, btw!) and i'm having another taste as i write this. beersmith says 40.9 IBU, and i used the first wort hop setting, which increased the IBUs for those hops by about 10%. this isn't a 41 IBU beer. it's a tasty beer for sure, and it's very well balanced, but i don't think it would be if it were 41 IBU. i don't have much of an internal scale for IBUs, but presuming other beers i've made were at the bitterness levels that beersmith predicted then i'd have to say this one is at 25-30. the ONLY thing i can think of as a reason that it might be higher then it tastes is because the stuff i've read about first wort hopping says that taste tests revealed that a beer brewed with first wort hops had a lower perceived bitterness than the same recipe brewed to the same bitterness with out the first wort hopping. in other words, i made a tasty beer, but whether some AA was lost due to first using the hops as dry hops is unknown.

i think this problem deserves a 1gallon side by side experiment. i'll mash enough grain to make two 1 gallon batches the first will get first wort hops using fresh hops, the second will get an identical amount of first wort hops that were previously used as dry hops. i suppose i'll have to make a 1 gallon batch of beer just to dry hop so that the proportions are right. i'll use only 1 type of hop and i won't add any aroma or flavor hops to eliminate variables. question/comments/thoughts very appreciated!
 
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