How Sanitized is Sanitized ?

[scorchingice]

I have been brewing for about 8 months. I have made batches of beer that have come out good, and have made some that have came out with some awful tastes/aftertastes that I can only assume from reading peoples posts comes from contamination of some type.

I use "One-Step" No-Rinse Sanitizer from Homebrewers Outpost and I usually will wash all the containers, spoon, thermometer, everything that the beer goes into or that touches the beer before or after it has cooled.

I know that I try my best to make sure everything is sanitized, but I am still getting off flavors in the beers I make. Am I sanitizing enough? Am I using the wrong stuff?

Also I have been transferring the beer from the primary fermenter to a secondary after about 10 days, then leaving it in the secondary for about 2 weeks before bottling. Should I bother using a secondary fermenter if I do not add anything extra to it, I do it mainly just to filter out extra garbage (Leaving extra sediment when transferring).

Does transferring it open up extra possibilities of contamination that make it not worth it ?

Please help me stop these odd flavors. (By the way I am making partial grain kit batches)

 

[menschmaschine]

OneStep is technically a cleanser, not a sanitizer. There is a government (FDA, I believe) definition of a sanitizer. It's something like it has to kill 99.999% of a certain bacteria that serves to emplify all microbes... I believe they usually go by E. coli 0157:H7. I've heard rumors that OneStep technically meets this definition, but they couldn't afford to have it approved in all 50 states or some $hit, but I don't know if that's true.

Bottom line is, use iodophor or StarSan.

 

[Bacchus]

I have been brewing for about 8 months. I have made batches of beer that have come out good, and have made some that have came out with some awful tastes/aftertastes that I can only assume from reading peoples posts comes from contamination of some type.

I use "One-Step" No-Rinse Sanitizer from Homebrewers Outpost and I usually will wash all the containers, spoon, thermometer, everything that the beer goes into or that touches the beer before or after it has cooled.

I know that I try my best to make sure everything is sanitized, but I am still getting off flavors in the beers I make. Am I sanitizing enough? Am I using the wrong stuff?

Also I have been transferring the beer from the primary fermenter to a secondary after about 10 days, then leaving it in the secondary for about 2 weeks before bottling. Should I bother using a secondary fermenter if I do not add anything extra to it, I do it mainly just to filter out extra garbage (Leaving extra sediment when transferring).

Does transferring it open up extra possibilities of contamination that make it not worth it ?

Please help me stop these odd flavors. (By the way I am making partial grain kit batches)

Well, as I've said before, I think the whole sanitation thing gets blown way out of proportion. Yes, you should keep things clean but I've seen and read where people get ridiculous with it. Did you know that there are actually homebrewers that believe in using no sanitizing solutions at all? They use nothing but hot water and claim that they lose no more batches to infection than do the brewers that do use sanitizers. Go figure, huh?

Personally, I only use unscented Clorox and then rinse like mad with lots of hot water. I've never lost a batch to infection and the only time I've detected "off flavors" is when I happened to brew a style of beer that I just didn't like!

I would have qualms about these so-called "no rinse" sanitizers. I don't like the idea of leaving a fungicide on the walls of my fermentation bucket and then drinking it. I don't care how "safe" the FDA says it is. Could it be that maybe.....just maybe......your palate is sensitive enough to detect the off flavors that are being created by your no-rinse sanitizer? Just a theory and my opinion, only.

 

[scorchingice]

Ok, some new questions. On my instruction paper I get, it says EVERYTHING must be sanitized even down to the yeast smack pack package. The fact that I must even sanitize that causes me to worry. Maybe it's just bad luck when I get a bad tasting batch.

Maybe it is not boiling the grains properly for the 2 hours. Sometimes the temps jump above/below the recommended 145 degree - 158 degree range. Is that more critical than the sanitizing ?

And again, should I be using the secondary fermenter? Does that open it up to even more contamination making it not worth it in my case ?

Thanks again.

Brian

 

[ChrisS68]

As long as you're relatively diligent about keeping things cleaned and sanitized, there isn't anything to be overly concerned about. Chances are, if you have an infection, there isn't going to be a question - you'll know it. And despite what Bacchus intimated, no-rinse sanitizers are safe and, mixed properly, should leave no detectable flavors; yes, some people are overly sensitive to such things...

Now, about the boiling... you're not actually boiling the grain, are you? That will certainly lead to some off flavors, particularly astringency. And two hours? Judging by your description it sounds like you're talking about a mash, though that wouldn't be boiled, and normally wouldn't take two hours. Maybe a rundown of your recipe and process is in order.
Oh, and a description of the off flavor(s)

 

[RCCOLA]

What is the temp. of your wort when you pitch your yeast?

And get some star-san. It's basically acid like the acid in soda pop, has no flavor or color and will not affect the flavor of yor beer. I've sprayed the stuff in my mouth (mixed), and can assure you--it tastes like nothing.

 

[scinerd3000]

starsan is you best bet and by far the easiest to deal with. Iodophore is cheaper but i hate the risk of haaving iodine flavor in beer. Sounds to me like it could be more than just your sanitation since it takes a decent amout to put that much off flavor in it. My guess is your fermentation temperatures could be a bit hot or your just not leaving it on the yeast cake for long enough. I leave all my beers in primary for a minimum of 3 week but usually 4. The extra time makes sure fermentation finishes as well as giving the yeast time to soak up its own wastes which are produced during fermentation. The flavor of the beer will benefit greatly.

You should NOT be boiling the grain. If the temp of the grain gets over 170 you will leech tannins and the beer will have an astringent flavor similar to chewing grapeskins. Steep around 155 for extract batches. You should be pitching the yeast at below 80F and the beer should sit in a fairly cool place during fermentation ~65-69 for most beers.

Secondary is used to help clear the beer and does not need to be used except for dry hopping or addition of fruits (in general).

 

[jgourd]

Well, as I've said before, I think the whole sanitation thing gets blown way out of proportion. Yes, you should keep things clean but I've seen and read where people get ridiculous with it. Did you know that there are actually homebrewers that believe in using no sanitizing solutions at all? They use nothing but hot water and claim that they lose no more batches to infection than do the brewers that do use sanitizers. Go figure, huh?

Personally, I only use unscented Clorox and then rinse like mad with lots of hot water. I've never lost a batch to infection and the only time I've detected "off flavors" is when I happened to brew a style of beer that I just didn't like!

I would have qualms about these so-called "no rinse" sanitizers. I don't like the idea of leaving a fungicide on the walls of my fermentation bucket and then drinking it. I don't care how "safe" the FDA says it is. Could it be that maybe.....just maybe......your palate is sensitive enough to detect the off flavors that are being created by your no-rinse sanitizer? Just a theory and my opinion, only.

+1 on Clorox. I use 4 tablespoons to 5 gallons. I rinse well. Never had a problem with an infection. I've even farted in my fermenter while taking a small sample of beer. Just kidding.

 

[scinerd3000]

I would have qualms about these so-called "no rinse" sanitizers. I don't like the idea of leaving a fungicide on the walls of my fermentation bucket and then drinking it. I don't care how "safe" the FDA says it is. Could it be that maybe.....just maybe......your palate is sensitive enough to detect the off flavors that are being created by your no-rinse sanitizer? Just a theory and my opinion, only.

starsan which is a norinse sanitizer is mainly phosphoric acid and a foaming agent. It had actually been shown to act as a yeast nutrient and as long as you follow the directions on the label, there shouldnt not be any issues...One step however is a different story requiring whatever had been cleaned to air dry before use, same as iodophore

 

[scorchingice]

As long as you're relatively diligent about keeping things cleaned and sanitized, there isn't anything to be overly concerned about. Chances are, if you have an infection, there isn't going to be a question - you'll know it. And despite what Bacchus intimated, no-rinse sanitizers are safe and, mixed properly, should leave no detectable flavors; yes, some people are overly sensitive to such things...

Now, about the boiling... you're not actually boiling the grain, are you? That will certainly lead to some off flavors, particularly astringency. And two hours? Judging by your description it sounds like you're talking about a mash, though that wouldn't be boiled, and normally wouldn't take two hours. Maybe a rundown of your recipe and process is in order.
Oh, and a description of the off flavor(s)

No, I am not boiling the grain. The step I am talking about is getting 5 quarts of water to 168 deg, add grain, let it soak for 1 hour between 145 deg and 158 deg. Sometimes The temp will lower to 155 and Ill turn the stove back on till it gets higher. but sometimes it will raise to 165 but I immediately turn the heat back off. I try to maintain the temperature as close as I can, but sometimes it will spike.

As far as where I stoore the beer to ferment. It is winter so it has to stay in the house. We keep it about 68 deg on the thermostat. I cant ut it outside. it would freeze. Is room temp too high ?

Oh and I pitch the yeast at the right temps etc.

Sorry if I was unclear earlier.

 

[Yooper]

What kind of flavor are you getting? Can you describe it? I'll give you some examples- cloves, spicy, "hot", fruity, bananas, ashy, like teabags, harsh, astringent, plastic-y, bandaid flavored, butter, oily, sweet, carmelly, soapy, sour?

Do any of those words fit what you're tasting? That will help us diagnose what could be going on.

What kind of water do you use?

 

[scorchingice]

Ok, I am going to try and describe this.

The 2 batches that this occurred most noticeably in were Both Imperial Stout types.

They both had the same type of off flavor. I am not good at describing flavors but I will try from your examples.

Cloves = No

Spicy = No

Hot = No

Fruity = No

Bananas = No

Ashy = Possible

Like Teabags = I stuck a teabag in my mouth and I don't think so.

harsh = I don't think that is it because it goes down fine, but has an odd bittery taste.

Astringent = Possible although it does not seem to make my mouth pucker I do not believe.

Band-Aid flavored = Hmm I chewed a Band-Aid and that didn't have any taste to me. Possibly the wrong brand ?

Butter = no

Oily = No

Sweet = No

Carmelly = No

Soapy = No

Sour = I think so


So to sum it up, Possibly Astringent, Sour, Bitter, Possible Ashy.


Sorry I am not good at describing it, But I can say it is drinkable, but seems to give me a headache drinking it, and leaves a bad film in my mouth after a few minutes. The aftertaste is when it is most noticeably a bad taste.

Another thing to mention about this batch.

I did 3 things different this time than others.

#1 I washed the bottles with soap, rinsed them, then sanitized. Usualy I just Rinse out the bottles then sanitize real good.

#2 The Yeast Smack Pack was about 6 months old and was not stored in the refrigerator the entire time. It didnt swell but I added it anyhow and used some home package of dry yeast from the store to help. It did ferment the usual way.

#3 This is something that may have an effect also. When adding to the bottling bucket. I added about 1/2 a gallon of clean water to it because it wasnt enough to fill the bottles. yes that was probably a bad move, But I figured it would just water it down some not cause bad flavors. I just wanted to fill all the bottles.

Anyhow thanks again.

Brian

 

[BlueSunshine]

Does the soap you used to wash your bottles with have a scent? Those strong types of soaps could have an effect on your beer. I use this stuff that has zero scent:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001FA1NTG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[scorchingice]

Does the soap you used to wash your bottles with have a scent? Those strong types of soaps could have an effect on your beer. I use this stuff that has zero scent:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001FA1NTG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Was just the ordinary everyday dish soap we use

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001GTQXNW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[BlueSunshine]

Was just the ordinary everyday dish soap we use

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001GTQXNW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I use Palmolive at home when washing dishes. It's made with perfumes to smell great on your hands, but it may not be the best tasting thing in your beer.

You could give that 7th Generation stuff a try when washing your bottles and see if it makes a difference, just make sure you rinse really well.

 

[Hang Glider]

Since you're steeping the grains, you are using an extract, correct? what kind/brand of extract, and how much? Grains are the first thing we look at when astringency is suspected. For what it's worth, when I started, I thought you were supposed to squeeze the yummy goodness out of the grains after soaking them, then stir them in with the extract. Wrong. let them drain, even rinse them, then get them out of the way.

Steeping grains can be steeped at 150-160 for 20-30 minutes, no need to go for an hour.

Temp control for fermenting is very important. Yeast should be fresh. Although the house is at 68, the fast and furious action of yeast during initial phases will raise the temp of your fermenter anywhere from 4-10 degrees. If you can get a large bucket or ice chest to set your fermenter in, surrounded with water, and control the temp with some frozen water bottles, try to maintain 62-65F.

Soap doesn't matter much if you rinse really, really, really really well. Then get wet with your no-rinse sanitizer, and do NOT rinse that. Leave it wet while you use the hose, bucket, bottle, etc. (sanitize everything!).

Bandaid - even though you don't have it, is typical of chlorinated water, and smells like plastic. Try Spring Water for a batch to eliminate water issues...

good luck!

 

[mullenite]

I use Palmolive at home when washing dishes. It's made with perfumes to smell great on your hands, but it may not be the best tasting thing in your beer.

You could give that 7th Generation stuff a try when washing your bottles and see if it makes a difference, just make sure you rinse really well.

I use 7th generation and don't have any issues with off flavors but I also rinse two or three times before sanitizing with star-san.

To me however, slightly sour/bitter sounds like astringency. Even if it isn't drying/puckering.

 

[Weezknight]

Didn't see anything about how long they're sitting in the bottles, and at what temps you're conditioning the bottles. Could it just be "green" beer?

 

[remilard]

Was just the ordinary everyday dish soap we use

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001GTQXNW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

In addition to being scented, that stuff is designed to not jack up your hands if you are in contact with it a lot. That's bad for a number of reasons. Get an unscented automatic dishwashing detergent (PBW would be even better) and wear gloves if you have delicate hands.

 

[scorchingice]

Didn't see anything about how long they're sitting in the bottles, and at what temps you're conditioning the bottles. Could it just be "green" beer?

I have been leaving the beer in the primary for 10 days, transfer to secondary for 3 weeks, bottling and leaving sit for 4 weeks before trying.

This time I am cutting out the secondary and leaving sit for 3 weeks in primary then going to bottle.

I stated above that I leave everything in a room inside the house where temperature is the same as the rest of the house.

I do not have an area with a cooler temperature until the early fall season when I can leave it out in the shed. Right now it would freeze.

Since you're steeping the grains, you are using an extract, correct? what kind/brand of extract, and how much? Grains are the first thing we look at when astringency is suspected. For what it's worth, when I started, I thought you were supposed to squeeze the yummy goodness out of the grains after soaking them, then stir them in with the extract. Wrong. let them drain, even rinse them, then get them out of the way.

Steeping grains can be steeped at 150-160 for 20-30 minutes, no need to go for an hour.

Temp control for fermenting is very important. Yeast should be fresh. Although the house is at 68, the fast and furious action of yeast during initial phases will raise the temp of your fermenter anywhere from 4-10 degrees. If you can get a large bucket or ice chest to set your fermenter in, surrounded with water, and control the temp with some frozen water bottles, try to maintain 62-65F.

Soap doesn't matter much if you rinse really, really, really really well. Then get wet with your no-rinse sanitizer, and do NOT rinse that. Leave it wet while you use the hose, bucket, bottle, etc. (sanitize everything!).

Bandaid - even though you don't have it, is typical of chlorinated water, and smells like plastic. Try Spring Water for a batch to eliminate water issues...

good luck!

I use kits from Home Brewers Outpost. Currently I am making an American IPA.
http://www.homebrewers.com/product/PM1002/American-IPA-Partial-Mash-Beer-Kit.html

It used 2 lbs of Briess Light Brown Dry Extract and 4 lbs of Briess Light Brown Liquid Extract.

I made it per kit instructions with the possibility of the grain temp maybe spiking up to close to 170 by accident 1 time till I cooled it back down.

Is it better to have too low a temp than too high when steeping grains? I leave the stock pot covered when steeping.

again thanks for the information being given.