Saison How Rye I Am (Rye Saison) - 2011 - 1st Place Best of Show - HBT Comp

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

skunkfunk

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
380
Reaction score
32
Location
Oklahoma City
Thinking about using a few pounds of corn sugar instead of candi sugar since I have several bags on hand, and using a pound or so of midnight wheat to match the color. Stupid? I hate to alter too much an award winning recipe, but it would seem that the yeast and rye make this recipe more than anything else, from the looks of it.
 

m00ps

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
6,908
Reaction score
2,167
Location
Paducah
Thinking about using a few pounds of corn sugar instead of candi sugar since I have several bags on hand, and using a pound or so of midnight wheat to match the color. Stupid? I hate to alter too much an award winning recipe, but it would seem that the yeast and rye make this recipe more than anything else, from the looks of it.
I wouldnt bother with the midnight wheat. The colors not important and any flavor contribution from it would be out of place. Just corn sugar will work fine and will actually let the saison yeast be more expressive since it wont have the rasiny flavors from the dark candi syrup.
 

skunkfunk

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
380
Reaction score
32
Location
Oklahoma City
I wouldnt bother with the midnight wheat. The colors not important and any flavor contribution from it would be out of place. Just corn sugar will work fine and will actually let the saison yeast be more expressive since it wont have the rasiny flavors from the dark candi syrup.
I'd heard rumor that the midnight wheat doesn't have much flavor, but I do think you're right that any roastiness would taste wrong. Yep, you talked me out of it, corn sugar it is.
 

RussPDX

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
153
Reaction score
17
Scored 36 (although 2 judges gave 38's) with this recipe
 

ShaLaH

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
222
Reaction score
22
Location
Brooklyn
Scored 36 (although 2 judges gave 38's) with this recipe
Nice Job!

I made the OP's recipe scaled down to a 3 Gallon version - I used Honey instead of Candi Sugar.

Mine came out decent but not great. I found mine tastes a little thin, needs a touch more body with absolutely no yeast taste. All the Saisons I've tasted have a yeast presence in them. My batch came out super dry and too clean, there were no citrusy notes or yeast. Perhaps I'll use Wyeast 3726 (Farmhouse Ale yeast) next time and use a different hop to get some citrus notes in there.

Any suggestions are welcome.
 

RussPDX

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
153
Reaction score
17
What temp did you ferment at? I had plenty of yeasty goodness. Almost to the point fo a Belgian pale but after a few weeks in the keg in settled into saison territory. I would agree a touch thin, I might up the rye a touch or try some oats or a higher mash temp.
 

ShaLaH

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
222
Reaction score
22
Location
Brooklyn
I fermented at 71* for 3 weeks, 69* for 1 week, 67* for 1 week. I made a 1 Liter starter which should be more than enough for a 3 Gallon batch. I believe I pitched the yeast when the wort was about 71*, I oxygenated it using a stone for about 30 seconds.

I'd definitely add some Oats to it next time, good call.
 

Borneogoat

Active Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2015
Messages
38
Reaction score
3
Location
Hobart
After reading through this long thread, I note that most people made high gravity brews resulting in >7% ABV beers. Also, most people primary fermented 4-5wks.

I have only one fermenter currently and was hoping for a quicker turnaround. Are the long'ish ferments due to the higher OG's or yeast 3711's behavior or something else? Considering the fast & high attenuation of 3711, could I ferment something sessionable (4-5%) in 2wks @ 71F?
 

bolus14

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2012
Messages
1,054
Reaction score
108
Just speaking from my experience with 3711, and 566 supposedly the same strain, they have hit FG in 7-10 days, add a week or so for the yeast to cleanup then a week + for bottle carbing, 3-4 weeks is doable but tight.

If your kegging it gives you a little more leeway, but I've comes to believe that a lot of beers can be drinkable in 3-4 weeks, but I like to give most of mine around 7-8 before drinking. Usually 3-6 weeks for fermenting then 2-3 weeks for bottle carbing and conditioning.
 

skunkfunk

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
380
Reaction score
32
Location
Oklahoma City
You can get away with 2 weeks in my experience, but it's a crap shoot. Sometimes this yeast takes its time churning through the last few points.

I've not experienced 566 to be anything at all like this strain.
 

m00ps

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
6,908
Reaction score
2,167
Location
Paducah
You can get away with 2 weeks in my experience, but it's a crap shoot. Sometimes this yeast takes its time churning through the last few points.

I've not experienced 566 to be anything at all like this strain.
Yeah, they are pretty different. 566 is supposedly a separate isolate from Dupont and 3711 I believe is from Brassier Thierez (sp?).

566 I usually get some bubblegum and a bit of hefe-like flavors from. Not too much citrus in its fruit character. Bit of spice

3711 is higher attenuating, drops clearer, and has only a hint of spice. Its mostly all just lemony zip

I geek out about both of them a bunch here
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=542346
 

RussPDX

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
153
Reaction score
17
After reading through this long thread, I note that most people made high gravity brews resulting in >7% ABV beers. Also, most people primary fermented 4-5wks.

I have only one fermenter currently and was hoping for a quicker turnaround. Are the long'ish ferments due to the higher OG's or yeast 3711's behavior or something else? Considering the fast & high attenuation of 3711, could I ferment something sessionable (4-5%) in 2wks @ 71F?
I only left it in primary for maybe 2 weeks (I dont have my notes on me), but no found thatbitbreally developed in the keg over the next few weeks. If you want to free up your primary just rack to a keg or bottle and condition for a few weeks. There will be plenty of yeast in suspension to keep working amd you wont tie up your primary.
 
OP
usurpers26

usurpers26

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
176
Reaction score
12
Location
Connecticut
You may have over pitched causing almost no ester production...3711 is ridiculously full of esters, combined with the rye malt it gives it a huge silky-ness in the mouthfeel.



I fermented at 71* for 3 weeks, 69* for 1 week, 67* for 1 week. I made a 1 Liter starter which should be more than enough for a 3 Gallon batch. I believe I pitched the yeast when the wort was about 71*, I oxygenated it using a stone for about 30 seconds.

I'd definitely add some Oats to it next time, good call.
 
OP
usurpers26

usurpers26

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
176
Reaction score
12
Location
Connecticut
Kinda funny but we have not changed this recipe (outside of using whatever hops we have on hand for balance) since the home brew days, 3711 has always taken its sweet time finishing. Even now at 7/15bbl it takes a solid 2 weeks before we crash and harvest. We consistently have this beer ready in 4 weeks in all its funky glory :mug:

You can get away with 2 weeks in my experience, but it's a crap shoot. Sometimes this yeast takes its time churning through the last few points.

I've not experienced 566 to be anything at all like this strain.
 
OP
usurpers26

usurpers26

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
176
Reaction score
12
Location
Connecticut
Just an FYI - over the who knows how many times we have brewed this we have never gotten any bubblegum notes. How was your pitch rate?

We have also played around - mostly on the higher end - with 3711, fermenting upwards of 82-84* and that started producing some crazy apricot/mango notes. We still regularly ferment this at 71-72* FWIW.

Just made this and it finished at 1.003. It is delicious but more of a Belgian Pale than a Saison. Lots of bubblegum Belgian ester notes. Anyone else find this?
 

ShaLaH

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
222
Reaction score
22
Location
Brooklyn
You may have over pitched causing almost no ester production...3711 is ridiculously full of esters, combined with the rye malt it gives it a huge silky-ness in the mouthfeel.
Hmmmm... I hadn't thought of that. The mrmalty calculator recommended a 1-Liter Starter. However, I did miss my OG by 10 points - 1.046 instead of 1.056. Plugging in my real OG of 1.046 instead of the 1.056 I was shooting for, the mrmalty calculator says that no starter is needed, just 1 pack of yeast. Interesting that an OG of 1.048 requires no starter but an OG of 1.049 requires a 1-Liter starter.

Perhaps this is the problem, but it seems like I was close enough to require a starter - 1.046 - 1.049 is only a .003 difference. If I had made a 2 Liter starter then I would've clearly over pitched, but I feel like I was close enough.
 

RussPDX

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
153
Reaction score
17
I used two smack packs in a little over a liter starter to underpitch a bit.
 

jturkish

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
110
Reaction score
1
Hi,

Soon I'm looking to brew a rye saison with Nelson hops and like this recipe. Will it turn out good if I substituted the hops in this recipe with Nelson hops?
 

m00ps

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
6,908
Reaction score
2,167
Location
Paducah
Hi,

Soon I'm looking to brew a rye saison with Nelson hops and like this recipe. Will it turn out good if I substituted the hops in this recipe with Nelson hops?
You are going to use a hop as aromatic and expensive as Nelson Sauvin solely as a bittering additon???

Also they have like more than twice the bittering potential of Styrian Goldings
 

RussPDX

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
153
Reaction score
17
Then you are no longer making the same recipe. Its a really nice grain bill so go for it. Let us know how it works out. I have not used Nelsons.
 

UCChemE05

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
65
Reaction score
10
Had anyone done this with Belle Saison? I'm doing a brew with it in a couple weeks and am looking for another recipe to reuse the yeast. This recipe has been on my To-brew list for a while. Thanks!
 

m00ps

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
6,908
Reaction score
2,167
Location
Paducah
Yes and planning to put some towards the end of the boil
Use literally any other hop than Nelson for bittering. Dont waste it on something you wont taste at all. its currently one of the most expensive hops on the market. Just toss in 1oz of something like magnum at 60min and save your nelsons for later
 

Aa760

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
122
Reaction score
14
Location
San Diego
Had anyone done this with Belle Saison? I'm doing a brew with it in a couple weeks and am looking for another recipe to reuse the yeast. This recipe has been on my To-brew list for a while. Thanks!
Yes. I have done this grain bill and the original and several iterations of it. I omit the dark Candi sugar now, so I do have a different recipe, admittedly. The last batch I split and did half belle saison and half 3711. Both were solid. I found the belle a little more peppery and tart, while the 3711, while still quite dry, had a smoother, some call it creamier, mouthfeel. I preferred the end product of the 3711, but the convenience of the Belle saison. Next one I want to try is the white labs french saison.
 

Aa760

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
122
Reaction score
14
Location
San Diego
Regarding the Belle Saison yeast question (having tech difficulties quoting right now): Yes. I have done this grain bill and the original and several iterations of it. I omit the dark Candi sugar now, so I do have a different recipe, admittedly. The last batch I split and did half belle saison and half 3711. Both were solid. I found the belle a little more peppery and tart, while the 3711, while still quite dry, had a smoother, some call it creamier, mouthfeel. I preferred the end product of the 3711, but the convenience of the Belle saison. Next one I want to try is the white labs french saison.
 

cuda6pak

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
341
Reaction score
51
For anyone familiar with this recipe and/or 3711, is there any reason not to ramp up the temp in the 2nd half of fermentation to help the yeast clean up quicker or just let it chug away at 71°?

Pitched at 64° into 1.072 10 gallons, 10 days into fermentation now at a rock solid 71°, wondering if I should bump it up to 73-75° and hold it there now that the bulk of fermentation is over.
 

m00ps

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
6,908
Reaction score
2,167
Location
Paducah
For anyone familiar with this recipe and/or 3711, is there any reason not to ramp up the temp in the 2nd half of fermentation to help the yeast clean up quicker or just let it chug away at 71°?

Pitched at 64° into 1.072 10 gallons, 10 days into fermentation now at a rock solid 71°, wondering if I should bump it up to 73-75° and hold it there now that the bulk of fermentation is over.
I dont see any reason not to do it. At this point, the flvaor profile wont be different. All it will do is help it finish up and possibly get your FG a bit lower. I just ramp 3711 into the low 90s and hold it there until a few days before bottling. If I was going to "bump it up" id do at least 5 degrees
 

markusreadus

Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2015
Messages
20
Reaction score
1
Hey Chaps,

Today I bottled this. Brewing it was a challenge, I couldn't get rice hulls. 40% rye in the bill lead to loads of gelatinous gunk in the wort. A very stuck sparge. Lead to over an inch of trub in the fermenter.

I brewed it with Belle Saison (dried saison yeast). I've never smelled anything quite like it, I was wondering if you guys could tell me if it's the yeast (never done a saison before), the high proportion of rye, or some sort of infection?

It's got a slightly fruity aroma - peachy, lemon, perhaps a little pineapple. There's a good whack of something almost smokey, but not smoke. Taking a sip leaves a sensation in the back of my throat a bit like a cigar might. There's spice, a little like pepper (no pepper in recipe).

Is all this normal? Cheers guys.
 

bolus14

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2012
Messages
1,054
Reaction score
108
More or less that's normal for Saison strains. Saison and Belgian strain can give off some very strange smells during fermentation, some fruity, some spicy, some funky, but given time they all clean up well.
 

markusreadus

Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2015
Messages
20
Reaction score
1
More or less that's normal for Saison strains. Saison and Belgian strain can give off some very strange smells during fermentation, some fruity, some spicy, some funky, but given time they all clean up well.
That's reassuring to know. Thanks!
 

cuda6pak

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
341
Reaction score
51
I dont see any reason not to do it. At this point, the flvaor profile wont be different. All it will do is help it finish up and possibly get your FG a bit lower. I just ramp 3711 into the low 90s and hold it there until a few days before bottling. If I was going to "bump it up" id do at least 5 degrees
Wow 3711 is no joke. I fermented at 71 for 10 days and bumped to 76 for 10 more days. 1.072 OG, 1.001 FG with very little alcohol taste. The Rye shines through with a wonderful spice. Excited to get this one carb'd up and some time underneath it, think it will only get better.
 

ArthurDigbySellers

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
100
Reaction score
21
Location
Chesapeake
Just tapped a keg of this that I aged 8 months with brett brux and it is excellent. I also really liked it fresh. Great recipe! :mug:
I just drank my last bomber of this that I bottled in September of 2014 the other night. It was so good! I really wish I would have bottled more rather than kegging most of it. I think this beer really shines with some age on it. I might brew this up again in the spring and bottle the whole batch.
 

adamg8504

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2012
Messages
47
Reaction score
2
I'm getting ready to brew 5 gallons of this tomorrow. Got the starter of 3711 spinning on the stir plate as I type.

I'll be in a similar situation as the OP; it's currently 3ºF where I am at in Ohio. Tomorrow should be closer to 10º when I start brewing.

This will be my first saison and if I like it then it might be the first recipe I try to sour.

Cheers!
 

Polboy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2011
Messages
910
Reaction score
37
Location
Chicago
heh, im ready to put my rye saison in the kegerator so i was looking for a label to put over the tap and google search redirected me to this thread after locating cool label, i can not find the author of the label so here it is. My house saison has 9% of rye but this recipe is punching 20% so im curious to compare side by side, i will report back with few pictures next week

RyeSaisonLabel2.png
 

Latest posts

Top