How much chamomile in witbier and wyeast 3944 ferment temps?

[rtstrider]

I hate to be that guy and ask the very question that's been asked before. I know I know...Google/Bing it, search the forums, etc. Well here's the thing I've done both and seen so many articles, and forum results including those of homebrewtalk, that say use anywhere from .2oz at flameout to 1oz or use it at 5 min left in the boil. I've read about people that go to tea shops and get the loose leaf chamomile and the others that get the chamomile in tea bags. I've also come across those that have used Celestial Seasonings tea bags. I ended up finding Bigelow tea bags at the store for half the price of Celestial Seasonings so I ended up buying that. This is the tea in question https://www.bigelowtea.com/Teas/Tea-Type/Herbal-Tea/Cozy-Chamomile-Herbal-Tea Now onto the questions lol This looks to be ground up chamomile so how much would you recommend using and when? I do not want a chamomile beer, but, I want something with a "hint" of it. I can add by weight too (which seems to be the going theme). What are the best results that have been had using this with your personal experience? Also with wyeast 3944 what temps would you ferment at? Say would you start at the low end and gradually bump up the ferment every few days? Main thing I'm trying to avoid here are bubblegum/banana flavors and want to bring out the clove (doing a protein rest at 122F to help) flavors a tad?

PS I tried getting my hands on the White Labs wlp400 at the White Labs brewery in Asheville, NC last week but they were plain out

 

[IslandLizard]

Chamomile in a Witbier?
Witbiers contain orange peel and coriander!

Not saying you cannot use chamomile in a Wit or any other beer. Most spice and health food shops will sell loose chamomile. If you're buying chamomile tea, chances are it's a mix of tea and chamomile. For most flavor and aroma retention, I think I would add it at flameout, chill down to ~150F and let it steep for another 10-20'.

WLP400 and WY3944 are the same yeast strain, for all good measure.

WY3944 won't ever give you banana flavor, it's not a Hefe yeast, you don't need to worry about that.
Ferment lowish, like 66-68F. When fermentation slows down, raise the temps to around 72-74F. It's an easy yeast. If you ferment at higher temps you may get some more cloves, but I've never tried.

Make sure to make an adequately sized starter.

If you're using a large percentage (25% and over) of flaked or other raw (unmalted) wheat, as you should in a Wit, a 15' combined beta-glucanase/protein rest at around 122F is recommended, but can be done anywhere in the 113-122F range. Don't overdo it, longer is not better as it may start to impede on head retention, later.
Some brewers claim that rest is not needed, or even unwanted, but many do, as do I, and my Wits always come out wonderful with plenty of creamy head. That rest will also help with lautering later.

 

[rtstrider]

Hey Islandlizard! Thanks for the feedback! You gave some awesome advice around a year ago on my franken hefe (witbier partial mash with wyeast 3068). I've seen a few recipes with chamomile in it and it's just a curiosity thing. I can definitely leave it out though. Now I do have a question for ya! I'm doing a 5 gallon batch 10.6lbs grains and yep it's 45.3% Flaked wheat, 9.4% Flaked oats, and 45.3% Avangard Pilsen malt (can sub that for Briess 2 row if you've had better experiences with that). So my question on the protein rest is...I'm doing BIAB so I would like to "dough in" at 132F for a temp drop to 122F. Now how much "mash" water would you initially add to this? I can start off small then bring up the temp of some "sparge or makeup water" to bring up my mash to 5 gallons. If I were to do that with a target strike temp of 150F what would you recommend? Worst case I can lift the grain bag out of the pot and just heat the 5 gallons to 153-155ish, pop the bag back in, and mash for an hour or so possibly?

PS Forgot to ask. Should I have the LHBS separate the grains? Meaning do I only do the protein rest with the oats/wheat or would I do this with all three malts?

 

[IslandLizard]

YVW! How did that FrankenHefeWit turn out?

I've tasted craft beers that used chamomile, some more successful than others. I think it works well in Wheat beers, Saisons, Grisettes, etc. even sours. Just ask yourself how long you want to drink a chamomile beer? Curiosity beers are great to take to a (tasting) event, everyone interested gets to taste it, you make a name for yourself, and some may remember it, oh yeah, that was something! Then you'll enjoy the rest or kick the keg a few weeks later when you throw a party. Alternatively, you could split the batch, just transfer half to an another vessel after the boil, or use the chamomile like a dry hop in part of the batch.

Avangard Pilsen malt is great, use it! It has plenty of diastatic power to convert large amounts of adjunct.

Either way would work, infusions or direct heating.

• With infusions, mash in thick/thickish to leave ample volume for water additions. Use a calculator for estimating your additions, there must be some out there. Or estimate, add, stir, measure, repeat.
• With direct heat, be careful it doesn't scorch. Stir thoroughly, scraping the bottom, while heat is being applied. If you hoist the bag, heat the wort to 155. But when you drop that 120F bag back in there it'll drop the temps significantly, then you got to do it again, and again. If you have a hoist above your kettle it's easier and less messy. Just make sure you don't denature the enzymes by letting the wort get past 155F for any length of time.

PS Forgot to ask. Should I have the LHBS separate the grains? Meaning do I only do the protein rest with the oats/wheat or would I do this with all three malts?

No need to separate the grains. It's actually better to mill the flaked goods as well, smaller pieces will hydrate and convert quicker. Of course you need to include (all) the base malt in your mash, it supplies the enzymes to enable your protein rest, and sacch rest later on. Flaked and raw goods contain no enzymes for they weren't malted.

I often brew Wheat (and Oat and Rye) beers with 50-60% flaked goods, you're in good company there! Flaked goods are (mostly) pregelatinized, so they're ready for conversion in the mash.

From experience, using large unmalted grain loads, that beta-glucanase/protein rest will help tremendously with lautering, later. But it won't hurt to have a half pound of rice hulls on hand just in case your mash does plug up.

 

[rtstrider]

The Frankenhefe was a good introduction into wits! It was definitely...Different lol Very heavy on the grapefruit rind and VERY heavy on the banana. It was very thick too like milky thick. Prob won't brew it ever again but it was the brew that got me into biab btw as soon as I realized partial mash was essentially biab I went head first the very next brew and did a biab cascade blonde ale. Anywho to stay on topic I may also be playing with a starter (stir plate just finished up). Would that knock down any of the flavors from 3944?

 

[IslandLizard]

Yeah, when you spend an hour partial mashing, the next step to do a full mash is only logical! But you do need a large enough kettle and heating source.

Why would a starter knock flavors "down?" If anything, an appropriately sized pitch helps prevent off flavors from being stressed from underpitching, while providing a good, healthy fermentation.

With your new plate, definitely make starters from yeast, and overbuild them, so you can save some out for a next batch, and again, and again...

 

[rtstrider]

That's definitely the plan! I have a 5 pack of Bells Oberon I was going to play with in regards to yeast culturing. I was just afraid overpitching may knock down the phenols/esters. If that's not the case then I'll definitely use it! From what I've seen it's 2 cups water to 1/2 cup DME correct?