How many people make yeast starters?
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When you're working with liquid yeast, unless you're either brewing a very low gravity session beer, or a small volume, and doing so with fresh yeast, then starters are a good idea. Some homebrew shops are able to keep fresh rotating yeast, and some are not. My yeast is usually about a month old when I buy it from my LHBS- about 75% viable. And many homebrew shops have yeast much older than that. The 1 pack/vial up to 5 gallons of 1.060 wort at provided by both Wyeast and White Labs on the package doesn't jive with the established pitching rates accepted in brewing science. Now, on the other hand, I have stopped advocating the Mr. Malty calculator rates (ie 0.75 million cells per milliliter per °Plato for ales, and 1.5 million cells for lagers). Sometimes a higher rate is better (say, an especially high gravity beer), and sometimes a lower rate is better (say, a Weizen). Pitching rate is an adjustable variable. However, following the Mr. Malty calculator will provide good results for a beginner who's not ready to start tweaking with pitching rates (where it's easy to go overboard and a mistake can have significant consequences), but important that the age of the yeast is included too. And you'll find, based on the Mr. Malty calculator, that for just about any beer some form of starter is needed.
It took me a a couple of years to get into doing starters, but they are worth the extra effort. I purchased a 2000ml flask, but find myself just boiling in a ridiculously oversized pot (1.75 gallon) for for the typical 1-2 quart starter to avoid boilover. Starters are great because they reassure you that your yeast is viable, and when brewing over 1.045 OG beers they make sure things get going considerably faster and the result seems a bit cleaner to me.
GrainToGlass
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It's a bit more work but definitely a good habit to start doing. Save up for a stir plate too if you can.
Subdivisions
Well-Known Member
You should always make a starter with liquid yeast. Dry yeast is a different story. You should always re-hydrate dry yeast to give it the best viability. If using dry yeast on a very big beer (1.080 or above) then rehydrate 2 packs. (This is MY area where I would use 2 packs. Others may think differently and that is their choice)
My last starter was on Sunday (about 5 days ago). It was from a harvested batch of Bell's yeast (from bottles of Oberon). I had the yeast in a mason jar in the fridge for a month before I did the starter. It took a couple of days of swirling around but it finally started to get a krausen (I don't have a stir plate). It has a nice layer of viable yeast on the bottom now but the moral to the story is... give it the time it needs. You'll see the yeast on the bottom.
My last starter was on Sunday (about 5 days ago). It was from a harvested batch of Bell's yeast (from bottles of Oberon). I had the yeast in a mason jar in the fridge for a month before I did the starter. It took a couple of days of swirling around but it finally started to get a krausen (I don't have a stir plate). It has a nice layer of viable yeast on the bottom now but the moral to the story is... give it the time it needs. You'll see the yeast on the bottom.
mgortel
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I always make a starter when using liquid yeast
boot_hill_brewery
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Good yeast handling practices are just important as brewing. I use one not only for starters but for making a larger starter and storing,washing the rest for later use.
Every batch.
The only thing that takes some effort is preparing the starter wort. Want to make it super easy? Get 6 mason pint jars, fill them with 1.040 wort, and sterilize them. (Pressure cooker is best, but you can get away with simple boiling.) Time to make a starter? Pop open two or three of them, pour them into a flask or jug with your yeast, boom, done.
The only thing that takes some effort is preparing the starter wort. Want to make it super easy? Get 6 mason pint jars, fill them with 1.040 wort, and sterilize them. (Pressure cooker is best, but you can get away with simple boiling.) Time to make a starter? Pop open two or three of them, pour them into a flask or jug with your yeast, boom, done.
Every batch.
The only thing that takes some effort is preparing the starter wort. Want to make it super easy? Get 6 mason pint jars, fill them with 1.040 wort, and sterilize them, and then store them away in a cabinet. (Pressure cooker is best, but you can get away with simple boiling.) Time to make a starter? Pop open two or three of them, pour them into a flask or jug with your yeast, boom, done.
EDIT - wait. I read a post where Yooper says pressure cooking is absolutely necessary for canning wort, and that simple boiling won't do it. Always follow Yooper's recommendations.
The only thing that takes some effort is preparing the starter wort. Want to make it super easy? Get 6 mason pint jars, fill them with 1.040 wort, and sterilize them, and then store them away in a cabinet. (Pressure cooker is best, but you can get away with simple boiling.) Time to make a starter? Pop open two or three of them, pour them into a flask or jug with your yeast, boom, done.
EDIT - wait. I read a post where Yooper says pressure cooking is absolutely necessary for canning wort, and that simple boiling won't do it. Always follow Yooper's recommendations.
I have a slightly different question under the same umbrella I guess..
I don't make starters as I use dry yeast, but I do rehydrate. For my next batch in a week's time, I plan on harvesting yeast (washing off the trub in some water) from a batch that's currently finishing fermenting. The plan is to bottle my current batch on the same day, washing yeast and then pitching about a cup or 2 of harvested yeast into the new wort.
So this is my question: Am I right in assuming there's no need to make a starter with this freshly harvested yeast since it's already up to speed and ready to go? i.e. it hasn't been dormant/refrigerated and has only been harvested that day?
I don't make starters as I use dry yeast, but I do rehydrate. For my next batch in a week's time, I plan on harvesting yeast (washing off the trub in some water) from a batch that's currently finishing fermenting. The plan is to bottle my current batch on the same day, washing yeast and then pitching about a cup or 2 of harvested yeast into the new wort.
So this is my question: Am I right in assuming there's no need to make a starter with this freshly harvested yeast since it's already up to speed and ready to go? i.e. it hasn't been dormant/refrigerated and has only been harvested that day?
I typically use dry yeast, and rehydrate. I made my first starter this year for a liquid yeast pitch, was easy enough.
Just brewed two batches yesterday and pitched liquid yeast, didn't do a starter since the Omega yeast was packaged on Tuesday, wanted to see what their product is like.
Just brewed two batches yesterday and pitched liquid yeast, didn't do a starter since the Omega yeast was packaged on Tuesday, wanted to see what their product is like.
antony
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Other than controlled fermentation temps, building yeast starters resulted in the single biggest improvement to my finished beer. Just got my hands on some old hard drive magnets, hoping to put together a stir plate this week.
Quadrupled
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I always make a starter and have a perfect example for why one should always do so:
Just a few days ago I prepared a 2L starter with yeast within its "use by" date and went to check on it 36 hours later for brew day. The starter had none of the normal yeasty aromas nor a krausen ring. Since I found no signs of it fermenting I checked the gravity and tasted a sample. OG hadn't dropped a point and the taste was only sweet wort. If I had not made a starter I would have wasted grain, hops, yeast nutrients, salts, finings, and 6 hours of my day.
Making a starter not only allows you to hit your intended pitching rate with fresh healthy cells which gives you an improved chance at making a better tasting beer but helps ensure you are not wasting your time and money if you've got a bum vial/bag of liquid yeast.
Just a few days ago I prepared a 2L starter with yeast within its "use by" date and went to check on it 36 hours later for brew day. The starter had none of the normal yeasty aromas nor a krausen ring. Since I found no signs of it fermenting I checked the gravity and tasted a sample. OG hadn't dropped a point and the taste was only sweet wort. If I had not made a starter I would have wasted grain, hops, yeast nutrients, salts, finings, and 6 hours of my day.
Making a starter not only allows you to hit your intended pitching rate with fresh healthy cells which gives you an improved chance at making a better tasting beer but helps ensure you are not wasting your time and money if you've got a bum vial/bag of liquid yeast.
Watched Palmer talking about it the other night, from what I took - dry yeasts come with their own nutrient reserves, liquid yeasts have already consumed these.
This is one reason. It won't hurt anything, but it doesn't help either.
The other is that dry yeast is much more shelf stable, comes with more yeast per pack, and is cheaper. End result is that, on cost alone, it's cheaper just to buy a second pack of dry yeast if you need it (and because there's more yeast and it's more stable, you usually don't) rather than making a starter.
End point, no real benefit to making a starter for dry yeast. Just rehydrate it.
Absolutely correct.
Use an online tool to work out how much slurry you need.
Fresh Slurry Harvested and pitched 1 day later. No starter needed.
OP: For Liquid yeasts and slurry that is old I always use a starter to target a desired pitch rate
Starter being made
There was a recent article about making one :cross:
Beernik
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Every brew since I made a diacetyl bomb.
sandyeggoxj
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All the cool people. That includes me.
Michigan_Wolfman
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I've never tried to make a yeast starter, although I'm tempted to at some point. I notice with White Labs yeast that just pouring it straight into the fermenter on top of the wort gives me an active fermentation within 12 to 24 hours, sometimes sooner. I've often wondered how much better my brews would be if I spent the extra time to make a starter using liquid yeast a few days ahead of a brewing session.
I learned something from the guy who taught me, and then recently read it from a brulosopher experiment, which is that I start my brew day with heating the water and taking 5 mins to make a starter. I just leave it in the vicinity of the brew and stir it with a woks that was in the boil in order to aerate it well. I guess this is like a vitality starter. They don't really have time to multiply with this, from what I understand, but they do have time to take up the nutrients.
I also overbuild these in order to harvest yeast, as I feel these are super healthy at this point and I don't bother with washing to lower chances of infection.
I even do this method with dry yeasts, I just rehydrate them first.
I usually have incredibly high activity even by the next morning. This last batch I pitched near midnight, and when I woke up at around nine I went to check on the beer first of course, and nearly had a blow out! Caught that and hooked up the blowoff tube, and went and ate breakfast. When I checked it again it was bubbling so hard already that it sounded like somebody was just on the other end of the tube blowing as hard as they could. Tons and tons of bubbles! That was the most activity I've seen that early, but it's usually close to that with any kind of yeast with this method.
I also overbuild these in order to harvest yeast, as I feel these are super healthy at this point and I don't bother with washing to lower chances of infection.
I even do this method with dry yeasts, I just rehydrate them first.
I usually have incredibly high activity even by the next morning. This last batch I pitched near midnight, and when I woke up at around nine I went to check on the beer first of course, and nearly had a blow out! Caught that and hooked up the blowoff tube, and went and ate breakfast. When I checked it again it was bubbling so hard already that it sounded like somebody was just on the other end of the tube blowing as hard as they could. Tons and tons of bubbles! That was the most activity I've seen that early, but it's usually close to that with any kind of yeast with this method.
The eternal wait for bubbles after pitching got old for me pretty fast. It wasn't that I was impatient; (hey, I cut my teeth making wine, so anything in beer circles was fast to me) it's that I was genuinely worried about the risk of infection from the oxygen that was sitting directly above the wort. By pitching a starter of known healthy yeast, I eliminate the anxiety from that phase of my brewing.
You could rightly argue that the anxiety is still there when I wait for my starter to begin fermentation. This is true, however, I start with a considerably smaller amount of yeast and malt extract, so should I get a failed fermentation, I won't be throwing away a huge amount.
In short, it gives you just that little bit more control if you use a starter.
You could rightly argue that the anxiety is still there when I wait for my starter to begin fermentation. This is true, however, I start with a considerably smaller amount of yeast and malt extract, so should I get a failed fermentation, I won't be throwing away a huge amount.
In short, it gives you just that little bit more control if you use a starter.
Mr. Malty is a terrible pessimist and Yeast Calc is too. Liquid yeast doesn't lose viability that fast if kept refrigerated. Read this article. http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2012/12/refrigeration-effects-on-yeast-viability.html
Pitch rate requirement is questionable too. Read about that here. http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/03/02/pitching-rate-experiment-part-deux-results/
I'll question the calculated yeast cells too. Two respected brewers using the same counting technique reported a count difference of 50%. How many yeast cells do you really have in your vial of yeast?
Pitch rate requirement is questionable too. Read about that here. http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/03/02/pitching-rate-experiment-part-deux-results/
I'll question the calculated yeast cells too. Two respected brewers using the same counting technique reported a count difference of 50%. How many yeast cells do you really have in your vial of yeast?
Thought you guys might be interested in this Q & A I had with Northern Brewer via e-mail given this thread: (their answer on top, followed by my question)
Hi Ed, thanks for contacting us! The reasoning for not making a starter with dry yeast is because they are packaged with glycogen reserves they use in the beginning of fermentation. When you make a starter, the yeast build their own glycogen reserves so making a starter is a fine diea. Since that packet is so old, it would be best to assess the viability before using, so if you ahve time to make a starter, go ahead and see! It would work fine to at least see if the yeast are still alive! I hope this helps!
Cheers,
James J.
Ed Davis
Jul 2, 09:07
I will be brewing your Dried Irish stout kit next week with my brew buddy. I happened to find a packet of US-04 a long time ago. The date on the packet is faded and I literally can not read it. HOwever, as an experiment, I was wondering if I could rehydrate the yeast, add some nutrient and make a yeast starter like I would for a liquid yeast. I've read on forums that making yeast starters for dried yeast is pointless because it's easier just to pitch two packs of dry, but I'm wondering, since I already have the 04, if this is a good way to check its viability. If I see no signs of fermentation in the starter, I'll just buy a new pack of 04. Are there any negatives in trying this?
- After receiving their response, I rehydrated with a pinch of nutrient and made a 650 ML starter. The starter was going very soon, so I'm now sure that yeast was still very viable. I'll let it ferment out and then cold crash, decant and pitch as usual. I would not do this with other dried yeast, if I knew they were fresh, but in this instance, I'm glad I did.
Hi Ed, thanks for contacting us! The reasoning for not making a starter with dry yeast is because they are packaged with glycogen reserves they use in the beginning of fermentation. When you make a starter, the yeast build their own glycogen reserves so making a starter is a fine diea. Since that packet is so old, it would be best to assess the viability before using, so if you ahve time to make a starter, go ahead and see! It would work fine to at least see if the yeast are still alive! I hope this helps!
Cheers,
James J.
Ed Davis
Jul 2, 09:07
I will be brewing your Dried Irish stout kit next week with my brew buddy. I happened to find a packet of US-04 a long time ago. The date on the packet is faded and I literally can not read it. HOwever, as an experiment, I was wondering if I could rehydrate the yeast, add some nutrient and make a yeast starter like I would for a liquid yeast. I've read on forums that making yeast starters for dried yeast is pointless because it's easier just to pitch two packs of dry, but I'm wondering, since I already have the 04, if this is a good way to check its viability. If I see no signs of fermentation in the starter, I'll just buy a new pack of 04. Are there any negatives in trying this?
- After receiving their response, I rehydrated with a pinch of nutrient and made a 650 ML starter. The starter was going very soon, so I'm now sure that yeast was still very viable. I'll let it ferment out and then cold crash, decant and pitch as usual. I would not do this with other dried yeast, if I knew they were fresh, but in this instance, I'm glad I did.
andy6026
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On a related topic - why do they bother selling liquid yeast on a homebrew scale? Or rather, why don't they simply make a dry version of every strain they make? Is it really that difficult for them to do so… and if so, why then are dry yeasts cheaper?
They last longer, they contain higher counts, they're easier to store, ship/transport, they take up less space, they're easier to work with, they're more economical.
The only reason I've heard to use liquid yeast is that some strains are better or more appropriate for particular recipes… but then why don't the manufacturers simply make a dry version?
They last longer, they contain higher counts, they're easier to store, ship/transport, they take up less space, they're easier to work with, they're more economical.
The only reason I've heard to use liquid yeast is that some strains are better or more appropriate for particular recipes… but then why don't the manufacturers simply make a dry version?
Quadrupled
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Would be nice but is easier said than done. The freeze-drying process (ETA I believe it's freeze drying which is used here) isn't easy on many cells (I'm familiar through work-related experiences) and a reasonable fraction of the cells from the liquid yeast varieties may not be able to survive. Liquid yeast manufacturers are supplying strains which fit a customer demand and not selecting strains based on their ability to reliably survive the drying process.
andy6026
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Ah, so it's actually something to do with the strain itself that inhibits the manufacturers ability to make a dry variant? That would definitely explain why there isn't more dry varieties available.
But if I may enquire one step further surely they could selectively breed the cells that survive the freeze drying process over a number of generations in order to come up with a dry variant of the same strain that is by and large viable?
Thanks for answering I get that you may not be able to answer the next part of the question there, but this question as to why there aren't more dry strains available has always had me scratching my head in wonder.
Ike
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Perfect timing: my FIRST ever starter is bubbling away on the countertop. My original plan was to split it, use half in today's batch, and save the second half to be used in the same fashion before the next batch that needed this strain (WLP002).
It's really pretty easy. Follow the videos and you'll rock it out.
BUT, the more I read, the more I hear about the true improvement in flavors that come from a well-built starter. If I assume (dangerous, I know!) that I've doubled my cell count with this starter, then split it, then I'd just be pitching the same number of cells as was in the original vial. In a perfect world, I should repeat the starter on the split half, then pitch that (or so I hear).
The starter is going so well, it'd be a shame to fail to maximize the benefits. So, I'm thinking I'll push brewing day back until tomorrow and reboot the starter tonight!
It's really pretty easy. Follow the videos and you'll rock it out.
BUT, the more I read, the more I hear about the true improvement in flavors that come from a well-built starter. If I assume (dangerous, I know!) that I've doubled my cell count with this starter, then split it, then I'd just be pitching the same number of cells as was in the original vial. In a perfect world, I should repeat the starter on the split half, then pitch that (or so I hear).
The starter is going so well, it'd be a shame to fail to maximize the benefits. So, I'm thinking I'll push brewing day back until tomorrow and reboot the starter tonight!
MrFancyPlants
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I've been running "starters" smallish cider batches. I let them bubble away in half G bottles with airlocks and every few weeks I put in the fridge over night and then "decant" into swingtops primed with a little fresh juice. Then I either swirl and dump the dregs into a fermenter with wart fora roaring fermentation, or refill with apple for my continuous cider pipeline. It's been working pretty well allthough I've been re-culture-ing from a six pack of rogue every couple months.
I try to make a starter if OG is over 1.050. Have never had any noticeable issues pitching a Wyeast smack-pack directly. Had a White labs vial (007) that I should have made a starter for--had it delivered via snail mail & it was kind of clumped together in a plug & hard to get out of the vial. Ended up making a beer that was a little estery.
I have done very few starters, typically choosing to re pitch fresh slurry out of the fermenter, rather than make starters. I do starters mainly to harvest yeast from bottle conditioned beer. Another option to consider is making a small 2 gallon batch with one tube of yeast, then collecting slurry from that batch for a lager batch. Why make a starter when you can make a lesser quantity of beer for not much additional work....yea I'm lazy, but draw the line at underpitching and avoid doing so if at all possible.
I'm much the same. I will brew a nice low gravity session beer without making a starter (assuming fresh yeast, that is, if it's old I'll still make a small one), and then repitch for a number of generations without a starter. Small batches are another way of dealing with it too.
The starter itself isn't what's important. It's getting the proper pitch rate for the results you want to achieve that matters.
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When I use liquid yeast, I make 3.5 liter starters. Cold crash and decant; swirl the yeast on the bottom and divide into 2 carboys.
Lately I've been pressure-cooking wort to use for starters for the next batch. I dilute the wort with distilled water when needed. I still bring the wort to a boil to sanitize the flask and foam stopper.
Lately I've been pressure-cooking wort to use for starters for the next batch. I dilute the wort with distilled water when needed. I still bring the wort to a boil to sanitize the flask and foam stopper.
Natdavis777
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Ive been doing starters for a few years now, including making my own stirplates. I think its good practice that yields great results. I also harvest a lot of my yeast and use it for a few generations, which pays itself off with the extra effort IMO.
I made my first yeast starter on the 4th of July this year as I was concerned with the viability of the liquid yeast I ordered from AHBS due to the warm temps. I pitched it into a 1.054 Belgian pale. A day or so later I had my first fermentation blowout. Blew the stopper and airlock clean out of the carboy and spewed all over. It wasn't quite Mt Vesuvius like, but made a hell of a mess still.
AQUILAS
Well-Known Member
I made my first starter about 3 weeks ago. This past weekend, I made another of WYEAST 1010 yeast. I didn't realize it was nearly 6 months old until a few hours after I had smacked it and noticed it didn't inflate much. I made a starter anyways. I made a 1L starter (100g DME/1L water) and had it on the stirplate right at 12am. After about 18 hours, I wasn't feeling confident about the yeast propagating due to yeast starter calculators giving me a 0% viability, so I made another 1L starter and tossed it in. The next day, I cold crashed, and this is how much yeast I ended up with.
A whole lot more than I was expecting...
The layer is about a quarter of an inch thick, covering the entire bottom of my 2L flask. So 1/4" all around.
My question is, how would I go about figuring out how much yeast I have? I plan to brew either tomorrow or friday and I'd like to figure out how much yeast to pitch instead of pitching the entire thing.
A whole lot more than I was expecting...
The layer is about a quarter of an inch thick, covering the entire bottom of my 2L flask. So 1/4" all around.
My question is, how would I go about figuring out how much yeast I have? I plan to brew either tomorrow or friday and I'd like to figure out how much yeast to pitch instead of pitching the entire thing.
Natdavis777
Well-Known Member
You can estimate how much yeast you have by finding how many mL you have. Ive seen reports of density of slurry being anywhere from 1-5 billion cells/mL. Myself, I go off Wyeast's recommendation of 1.2 billion cells/mL to be conservative.
I made my first starter about 3 weeks ago. This past weekend, I made another of WYEAST 1010 yeast. I didn't realize it was nearly 6 months old until a few hours after I had smacked it and noticed it didn't inflate much. I made a starter anyways. I made a 1L starter (100g DME/1L water) and had it on the stirplate right at 12am. After about 18 hours, I wasn't feeling confident about the yeast propagating due to yeast starter calculators giving me a 0% viability, so I made another 1L starter and tossed it in. The next day, I cold crashed, and this is how much yeast I ended up with.
A whole lot more than I was expecting...
The layer is about a quarter of an inch thick, covering the entire bottom of my 2L flask. So 1/4" all around.
My question is, how would I go about figuring out how much yeast I have? I plan to brew either tomorrow or friday and I'd like to figure out how much yeast to pitch instead of pitching the entire thing.
Ball park number is 1 billion cells per ml of slurry. Of course, other factors that affect viability are not factored into that but chances are that as long as you have healthy yeast that number should work.
I made my first starter about 3 weeks ago. This past weekend, I made another of WYEAST 1010 yeast. I didn't realize it was nearly 6 months old until a few hours after I had smacked it and noticed it didn't inflate much. I made a starter anyways. I made a 1L starter (100g DME/1L water) and had it on the stirplate right at 12am. After about 18 hours, I wasn't feeling confident about the yeast propagating due to yeast starter calculators giving me a 0% viability, so I made another 1L starter and tossed it in. The next day, I cold crashed, and this is how much yeast I ended up with.
A whole lot more than I was expecting...
The layer is about a quarter of an inch thick, covering the entire bottom of my 2L flask. So 1/4" all around.
My question is, how would I go about figuring out how much yeast I have? I plan to brew either tomorrow or friday and I'd like to figure out how much yeast to pitch instead of pitching the entire thing.
This is a question I've been seeing more and more. I think it might be worth it's own thread at this point.
There's 3 schools of thought here:
There is a method using dilution ratios, where you can estimate the cell concentration fairly accurately, but it takes time and math which makes most of us need a beer.
Many people just assume a concentration of between 1 and 4 billion cells/mL of slurry and that will get you in the rough ballpark
and finally, there's the idea that it doesn't matter what your starting cell count is when you make a starter because they will multiply to a point where there's no more oxygen and sugar in the starter, so the number of cells is decided by the volume and gravity of of your starter more than anything.
I don't think any of these are wrong, except to say that the last one needs some testing to back it up.
As a general rule, its hard to overpitch for a 5 gallon batch unless you put in a ridiculously large starter. I usually just make a 2L starter, cold crash and decant, let it warm to room temp and pitch it. I don't worry too much about pitch rate as long as its "enough." I think of it more as a threshold than an actual "ideal pitch rate".
My thinking could be totally bass-ackwards though! but it's always worked for me and I've never ended up with a slow fermentation start or a yeasty tasting beer.
