How many before it gets better?

[kmonty]

I have made two brews - neither have which have turned out well. First a Scottish Ale from a kit that had a FG of .021 instead of the target of the .012 that was the goal. Followed the instructions very carefully, however I am assuming it was due to not re-hydrating the dry before pitching.
Just tried a Dunkelweizen that had fermented for 3 1/2 weeks, and bottled for a couple weeks. Tried a couple of them - not very good. As I learned later, steeping the grains in 3 gallons of water was the error - should have been only 1 gallon so the taste is off.
I have been reading How to Brew quite a bit and learning plenty ( plus reading this forum, which is very helpful ). So am wondering, how many bad brews does it take to make a good one? Do I have to learn by making expensive mistakes each time? Or should I just read more before I attempt another one? Just feeling a bit frustrated is all.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks.

 

[hypergolic]

I don't have a lot to add but I would tell you to stick with it. My first batch turned out great. My second batch was infected or something it turned out very sour and was undrinkable. I am waiting for my third and fourth batch to finish fermenting and I am hoping they will turn out well. What was so bad about your first batch? It sounds like fermentation may not have completed.

 

[kable]

Keep at it!

1. Yeast pitching rate
2. Fermentation temp controll

 

[ChandlerBang]

Are your kits fresh and from a good company? The first 3 I did were BB kits that had probably been on the shelf a while. I now buy from Austin HomeBrew Shop. Their kits are much better with better instructions.

 

[dttk0009]

I know how you feel. It's a learning process. I'm on my 5th batch and every batch preceding my most recent one I made some kind of an amateur mistake that I must have just not caught up on or forgot about. My last batch I made a starter for dry yeast. The one before that I mashed too high so I ended up with a high FG. The one before that I didn't leave in primary for long enough. etc.
You'll get better as you go along, I already noticed how much less worried and stressed I was making my last batch just because I've familiarized myself with the process a little bit already. I pretty much lurk here as much as I can to get the knowledge and first hand experience from other brewers. Despite that, mistakes and small mess ups still happen.

Having said that, despite my mistakes, I still enjoyed my previous beers, as did the people I showed them to. I also had a pretty big problem with waiting for beer to finish carbing in the bottle. I just don't possess the patience yet.

 

[LakewoodBrew]

I have made two brews - neither have which have turned out well. First a Scottish Ale from a kit that had a FG of .021 instead of the target of the .012 that was the goal. Followed the instructions very carefully, however I am assuming it was due to not re-hydrating the dry before pitching.
.

I doubt it had anything to do with not rehydrating. I dont' use dry myself but most people do not rehydrate. proofing is really only needed when unsure of yeast viability. what was the starting gravity of the scottish ale?

 

[ChshreCat]

I didn't used to rehydrate my dry yeast. I do now, just to give it the best head start it can get, but honestly I don't notice any difference in the end product.

Keep working on it and as said before, try working on temperature control. That and sanitation are probably the two things that will make the biggest impact on your beer.

 

[kmonty]

Thank you to all for your responses. It is reassuring to know it is all part of the process. I already enjoy this new hobby for me, but man, does it require a great amount of patience!!
I'll just keep reading this site and books, and make a thorough list for brew day before trying another batch.
Thanks again!

 

[jsweet]

In each of my first three batches, I made progressively more mistakes on brewday than on the previous batch. Then it started to turn around.

Can't tell you when the flavor starts to get better, as most of them are still either fermenting or in bottles

 

[Wakadaka]

What dry yeast were you using? Muntons? I definately recommend ordering kits online from AHS or some of the other popular shops. My first kit was a true brew amber ale. It had canned LME and dry muntons yeast, and the hops were packaged with the whole thing which sat on the shelf for who knows how long.

I don't think that there is too much of a difference between ingredients EXCEPT for the clearly beginner ingredients and the 'real' ingredients. Stay away from the mr. beer, coopers, and the prepackaged kits. The online shops that make their own aren't even more expensive, but they are much fresher and better quality.

Other than that, just keep at it, or lower your expectations haha.

 

[Kaz]

IMO. The biggest improvement you can make to control fermentation temperature. Having a way too hot fermentation will send a beer south pretty quick. There are a lot of other factors, but temp is very important.

 

[cincybrewer]

I've made 5 batches or so and my latest was by far my best. I have one in the fermenter right now that I think will be even better. I had to throw out two (well really just one since I still have the bottles from 6 months ago). I can tell with each brew that I get better and better at the process and it starts becoming easier. The first two were overwhelming and I thought it was a tough process. Now I can do it all without much thought.

I've gone to full boil extracts which seem to help and I also try to make sure the ingredients are good (I've bought my last 3 from AHS). I've also really tried to control fermentation temps.

I'd also recommend some simpler styles to start off with. I brewed 3 belgians early on and I think I should have stuck with basic ales (APA, IPA, Blonds, etc) as they seem to have a cleaner taste.

 

[JohnTheBrewist]

First let me say that I think your assumptions are wrong as to your possible mistakes.

On the first batch, the beer simply may not have been finished fermenting. When you measured .021, you should have given it more time and then taken another reading. The problem is not likely yeast rehydration.

On the second batch, I think it was still too green. Give it a couple more weeks in the bottle and you'll find the taste improves significantly.

When you say they didn't turn out well, can you describe better the flavors as well as what you liked and didn't like?

 

[Moonlighter]

IMO. The biggest improvement you can make to control fermentation temperature. Having a way too hot fermentation will send a beer south pretty quick. There are a lot of other factors, but temp is very important.

+1 on temperature control. I wasn't hitting my target FG's until I started controlling the fermentation temp. It has made a huge difference.

I lurked on craigslist and searched the local want ads until I found a chest freezer for $50. I then purchased a temperature controller, a Single Stage Johnson, for $55. This has amounted to the best purchases I've made so far towards home brewing good beer.

If that isn't in the works for you, there's plenty of info on this website about using swamp coolers, bathtubs etc. or even building your own system to keep your fermenter in the proper temperature range.

 

[AmandaK]

First let me say that I think your assumptions are wrong as to your possible mistakes.

On the first batch, the beer simply may not have been finished fermenting. When you measured .021, you should have given it more time and then taken another reading. The problem is not likely yeast rehydration.

On the second batch, I think it was still too green. Give it a couple more weeks in the bottle and you'll find the taste improves significantly.

When you say they didn't turn out well, can you describe better the flavors as well as what you liked and didn't like?

I agree with John whole-heartedly.

On the first batch, depending on how long it was in the primary, it could have just needed more time, it could have had poor (read: Munton's) yeast in the first place, or it could have had a poor (read:low fermentability) extract to start from.

Second: give it time and let us know what happens.

 

[kmonty]

@ John - I hear you, loud and clear. Thanks to all the responses, I am made of aware of numerous possibilities of things going wrong with either brew.
To respond to the flavor of both beers:
First one-Scottish Ale (Austin Homebrew Kit) ; had a somewhat smoky initial flavor, then mellowed to a decent, malty flavor of a Scottish ale. I will say that if I poured one and let it sit for 10 minutes, the smoky initial flavor dissipated.

Second one-Dunkelweizen (recipe from Brewing Classic Styles book) ; not at all what I expect from a DW. Overwhelming cherry flavor up front, with little to no wheat afterwards. I am certainly willing to wait a bit longer on this one to see if it improves.

In both cases, I left it in the fermenter for at least 3 weeks, then bottled and tried after 2 weeks. Scottish fermented at 65 degrees, DW around 67.

Hope all that info helps to describe what happened in each case!

 

[Kaz]

Those temps are pretty good if they are fermenter temps, if ambient then they might have been a little on the warm side. One of my first brews was a Brewers Best Scottish Ale, and it came out way too smoky for me too. Not sure where the cherry flavor would be coming from in the Dunkelweizen. I've tried a few recipes from that book and they are usually pretty good. I would let them age a few more weeks and give them a try. That smokiness will fade a little and the DW might mellow out. 2 weeks in the bottle is still pretty young homebrew.

 

[Rockape66]

My first five batches were Brewer'sBest kits, and made excellent beer. They did come from a LHBS that has a high turn-over, so freshness probably wasn't an issue. The only things I changed from the kit instructions was to leave in primary for 3 - 4 weeks, and to rehydrate my yeast. The only thing I've found with rehydrating the yeast is less lag time. Typically I was getting about 48 hrs lag time without rehydrating. This last batch was bubbling away in 3 hrs.

 

[FloatinAway]

Temp control and pitching the yeast at the right temp (assuming good ingredients ) will make everything right. Remember people have been doing this for 6000 + years. Do yourself a favor and buy a whole bunch of your favorite beers to drink while you wait for time to do what it does. Keep reading and sanitizing and everything will be just fine

 

[JohnTheBrewist]

Kmonty, I think you did a very good job on both of these beers. Nothing you did will have affected them too drastically. The strong flavors you describe in both should mellow in time. If the cherry flavor doesn't subside, my first guess will be pitching or fermentation temp. But again, give it more time to condition. At 6 weeks you'll still notice a change between there and, say, 4 weeks. At 2 weeks you really can't tell what your finished beer is going to taste like.

I also want to point to your comment that the smokey flavor dissapated after about 10 mins. Keep in mind that this style of beer wants to be served cool but not cold. Letting it warm a little allows the beer's natural flavors to come through, and probably provides that needed balance.


Your next step is to plan your next batch. I like FloatinAway's suggestion of buying some beer to drink while you wait, but I'd suggest buying a few different brands of the next style beer you want to brew instead of buying your usual. Get a feel for the range of flavors to expect so you have a good general comparison.

Keep at it, you'll be happy you did!

 

[Revvy]

You can steep in any size amount of water, from a few pints to your full volume, it doesn't matterm and doesn't lead to off flavors...

This is more than likely your problem right here.

....and bottled for a couple weeks. Tried a couple of them - not very good.

How many weeks is a couple weeks? 14 days? 2 weeks? 5 Weeks?

If tasting you beer under 3-6 weeks more than likely you beer is simply green. They flavors haven't come together yet. A lot of you noobs post about this, and it's under the window of greeness, and when you revisit your beer in a few more weeks the beer tastes great.

The biggest thing is that unless you infected the beer, it more than likely tastes like crap because they are really young, what we call green. If that's the case, which it more likely is, all is not lost....leave your beer in a closet for a couple of weeks more and taste them again. 99% of the time your beer will magically be better. Because the beer has conditioned in the bottled, it's matured and the flavors have married, like how leftover chili or spaghetti sauce always taste better the next day.

Green beer is really any flavor experience that you have that you are not happy with that may be present in the first few weeks of the beer's life that is gone when the beer is fully matured, a few weeks later.

The chili/spaghetti analogy is a good one.

It really can be any number of flavors, many of them are the same ones that are on those "off flavor charts." The only real difference is that they will go away with time.

That's why I say don't sweat any flavor or aroma that you experience from yeast pitch day til its been about 8 weeks in the bottle. Then if the beer still has that, you can look at the causes of it from those charts. But still radically sometimes walking away from a beer for 6 months to a year before deciding to dump it, the beer can end up being OK....

Describe Green Beer.

ALthough your beer appeared to be carbed at 14 days the process wasn't over yet. The 3 weeks at 70 degrees, that we recommend is the minimum time it takes for average gravity beers to carbonate and condition. Higher grav beers take longer.

Stouts and porters have taken me between 6 and 8 weeks to carb up..I have a 1.090 Belgian strong that took three months to carb up.

ANd just because a beer is fizzy doesn't mean that it still doesn't taste like a$$ at that time....that it's still green

Temp and gravity are the two factors that contribute to the time it takes to carb beer. But if a beer's not ready yet, or seems low carbed, and you added the right amount of sugar to it, then it's not stalled, it's just not time yet.

Everything you need to know about carbing and conditioning, can be found here Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning. With emphasis on the word, "patience."

Forget about them for a couple more weeks, and then come back and post how wonderful they taste now that the flavors have come together.

After you're done reading my bottling blog read bottle aging WOW! ....

 

[Yooper]

The initial "smoky" taste sounds like either a bit of contamination, or a water issue. What kind of water have you used for your two brews?

 

[jsweet]

The initial "smoky" taste sounds like either a bit of contamination, or a water issue. What kind of water have you used for your two brews?

My very first batch ever was the "Sparrow Hawk Porter" recipe in Joy of Homebrewing and it called for a full lb. of black patent malt, which in retrospect I feel was pretty excessive. It had a pretty harsh and unpleasant smoky taste early on, which started to mellow but hadn't completely by the last time I tasted one. I haven't had one in over 3 weeks so it may be better now. FWIW.

 

[Kaz]

The initial "smoky" taste sounds like either a bit of contamination, or a water issue. What kind of water have you used for your two brews?

It looks like all the Austin Homebrew Scottish kits have peat smoked malt in them. Not saying you're barking up the wrong tree, but I've found that a little smoked malt can go a LONG way for some people's taste buds.

 

[Revvy]

it looks like all the austin homebrew scottish kits have peat smoked malt in them. Not saying you're barking up the wrong tree, but i've found that a little smoked malt can go a long way for some people's taste buds.

+1

 

[kmonty]

Thanks so much for this wealth of information! Clearly, it is time to let it sit at least a couple weeks longer. And while I'm waiting, I already bought the ingredients for another brew - a Blonde Ale, nice and simple. Brewing that next week.

So the two brews I have mentioned are the first I have tried on my own. I have done three others with an experienced home brewer (read: all-grain, every weekend) that have all turned out very well. (we have used tap water successfully each time) In each case, I tried them a couple weeks after bottling and they were quite good, however I have also noticed how the flavors have changed over time. Clearly, I thought I knew more than I actually did by going it alone!

It helps me appreciate how much I have yet to learn and willing to do so. And greatly appreciate the support network here on the forum!

 

[Homercidal]

It will come in time. If you are sure the water is not the problem, then I'd focus on fermentation temps (as a matter of course) and check how much air you are getting into the system when bottling.

And, of course, time does some amazing things to beer after it's fermented. It may just need more time.