I have recently decided to go down the rabbit hole of water chemistry. I am using the Bru n Water spread sheet to help me reach my numbers and to help me add the right salts. My question to you all is a simple but potentially not so simple. When adding the brewing salts, do you add it all to your total brewing water (including the mash and sparging water)? Or do you split it between the mash and add the rest to the sparge water? Details on this are highly appreciated! Thanks guys!
How do YOU customize your water
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I follow the recommendations fairly closely in the Bru'n Water sheet. I separate my sparge and strike volumes and treat them as needed. If you look at the way the spreadsheet works - the mineral concentration is distributed between mash volume and sparge volumes... so if those were 1:1 in volume, you should see the mineral volumes split in half. So if you prepare all of your liquor before hand, you should be able to add all of the minerals (excepting the alkali) as you begin to heat up the water, add the acid into the strike water as I add it to the grains, and then treat the remaining sparge water as needed. I mix my dry alkali additions (when needed) into the entire grist before hydrating it.
Doesn't mean this is the right way!
Doesn't mean this is the right way!
I use the EZ Water Calculator spreadsheet. Being that I do BIAB I'd say 95% of my total water is used in the mash I don't worry about the sparge water. I adjust the mash water according to the numbers needed for style and mash PH. The little water I pour over to rinse the grains is too small for me to worry about. Our tap water here in Chicago tastes great so I don't worry about that, as long as PH is still in range.
Fancy shoes and a nice hat.
Actually I do not, yet. So far my numbers are pretty good but I will get into water science more after I get my water report back. I am using numbers published in 2014 for samples taken in 2013.
Actually I do not, yet. So far my numbers are pretty good but I will get into water science more after I get my water report back. I am using numbers published in 2014 for samples taken in 2013.
McKnuckle
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I also prepare all of my water together, and if I need to split it up for mash and sparge, I do so after ameliorating it. I look at the water holistically as if it came out naturally that way from whatever its source is.
Yeah so far Ive been treating all of my water volume with the total amount of additions needed. But I was wondering if I split the addition as Bru n Water recommends will it make my adjustment more accurate and reflect whats on the spread sheet. From what i can tell so far, everyone has their own way of doing it. I just want to do it the way it will give me better and more accurate results.
I'm glad this question was asked and hope more experts weigh in. I have the same idea as above and that seems to make sense but also wonder if there is a better way. Since the amount of calcium you can add to your mash is usually not enough to hit your desired mash pH (at least with lighter beers), could you add all the minerals (calculated as if you were treating all the water) to the mash water. This way you have more calcium in the mash, then sparge with straight RO. Would the act of sparging move the minerals into the kettle and end up with a wort comprise of the same mineral content as if you had treated all the water?
That's what I did when I was doing 5 gallon batches. The only caveat is that you don't want to add alkalinity to your sparge water, so in the rare case you are using baking soda or something to bring up your mash pH, you'd want to add that only to the mash and not the sparge water.
The only reason I treat my mash/sparge differently now is that I do 10 gallon batches, but only have a 15 gallon HLT so I need to refill the HLT a bit before sparging. I try to sparge with 100% RO water, so that I don't have to acidify my sparge water at all, but sometimess I have to add some tap water to get to my volume so I add the acid to the HLT at that point if needed.
stoneBriar
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I do my calculations for salt and acid additions based on mash only. I treat the sparge water separately with acid only.
I use Palmer's spreadsheet (with some modifications thanks to Bill Pierce and a few additions of my own to automate some of the calculations).
I use Palmer's spreadsheet (with some modifications thanks to Bill Pierce and a few additions of my own to automate some of the calculations).
Yooper im brewing in southern California so I ONLY use additions to lower pH in the form of calcium chloride or gypsum or acid malt. So is there any reason to add any of those into the sparge water? If not should i just put all my additions into the mashtun along with the grains? Thanks!
stoneBriar
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No. Soluble minerals will be moved to the kettle but the whole reason calcium additions drop the mash pH is that they are reacting with phosphate in the mash and precipitating as hydroxyapatite while releasing protons (acid). That calcium is not soluble and will not make it to the kettle. Furthermore malt is filthy with oxalate which will bind up more calcium and precipitate as beerstone, which again, is not soluble and will not make it to the kettle. Then there's the whole issue with the not knowing what minerals the malt itself is bringing to the party. Salt additions to the mash are there to help the mash get to the right pH, but don't assume that you will get the same amount of "stuff" into your kettle.
Does anyone know of any literature where ion concentrations were measured in wort(or beer) and correlated to mash salt additions?
Yooper im brewing in southern California so I ONLY use additions to lower pH in the form of calcium chloride or gypsum or acid malt. So is there any reason to add any of those into the sparge water? If not should I put all my additions into the mashtun with the grains? Thanks!
stoneBriar
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Adding calcium to the sparge will most likely have limited effect on mash pH. It takes time for the calcium to react with malt phosphates and release protons to keep the pH low. It is my opinion that you are better off acidifying your sparge water to control sparge alkalinity instead of relying on the Ca+PO4 reaction to keep your pH in check. That being said, I've never tried it (I acidify my sparge water), maybe the reaction is fast enough.
No reason to add them to the sparge water; but no reason not to either!
For convenience sake, and because it won't hurt, you can add the gypsum or calcium chloride to the sparge water. But there is no advantage either.
You want to hit your mash pH, you want to keep your sparge pH under 6 (or sparge with 100% RO water) and the ions are for tweaking of flavor- so whatever works is what works.
That is correct. We are better off acidifying sparging water. This is especially true as the malt phytins are flushed from the mash and there are reduced levels for the hardness ions to react with. This was discussed in detailed on the Bru'n Water Facebook page a few months ago. Be sure to check that out.
Adding minerals to the mashing and sparging water, just the mashing water, or to the mash and kettle are all viable options. They all have differing effect on mash pH and some chemical reactions. Be aware of that.
Right. But what about ions and flavor. Whatever works is what works but in trying figure that out, I would like to know where/when the flavor ions play out their role. I get the calcium in the mash thing regarding pH and precipitation of oxalates (sort of) and I understand that when "building water" our source of calcium is best derived from CaCl2 and CaSO4. For the flavor ions, I have assumed the flavor effect may be more in the kettle but maybe also in the mash. In the kettle certainly makes sense for sulfates affecting hops flavors as there are typically no hops in the mash. If this is so, are we getting enough sulfate ions in the kettle by adding them to the mash? What about chloride ions as for where/when their effect takes place and are they moved from the mash to the kettle?
Certainly trial and error can be an effective way to make changes in the brewing process but there are so many variables to control during the process, it can be a challenge to know if the results of one treatment are due to that treatment or some other variable you were unable to control. Short of good hard scientific trials, often knowledge can have the greatest impact on a complex process. I would highly value more discussion about how to get the best impact from flavor ions in the brewing process.
I pour liquid limestone from my municipal tap. With the help of Bru n Water, I usually cut with 30-40% distilled water to cut down on the bicarbonate and add some lactic acid to drop mash pH.
In the case of acidifying the sparge water, seeing how you would sparge at such a high temperature would having high hardness or alkalinity affect the pH? If the acids from the malts are already flushed out by the time we sparge what effects will the second runnings have? My belief was, and please correct me if im wrong, is that the initial mah pH is what matters most not necessarily the sparge. Sorry for asking so many damn questions and being such a rookie!
Because the buffering of the mash is exhausted during something like a fly sparge (takes a while) the pH can rise fairly quickly. Acidifying the sparge water helps to prevent this rise - you can check the pH of the kettle runnings to confirm this. A high pH (over 6.0) at 170F can possibly extract tannins (polyphenols) that cause astringency. I have been acidifying my sparge to 5.8 and been able to run at between 170/185F without any discerned astringency.
Note that some folks don't believe you need to acidify at all with batch sparging as the time of contact is so much shorter than fly. If you split your batch sparge, you may want to consider it.
Yes. It is critical to strike a proper mash pH to ensure full sugar extraction as well as full malty flavors.
Note that some folks don't believe you need to acidify at all with batch sparging as the time of contact is so much shorter than fly. If you split your batch sparge, you may want to consider it.
Yes. It is critical to strike a proper mash pH to ensure full sugar extraction as well as full malty flavors.
After reading what I wrote... I didn't really mention the alkalinity of the sparge water. Low alkalinity sparge waters like RO or DI water most likely will not need acidification. If your water has any significant level of alkalinity (as CaCO3), that alkalinity will have less of the mash (and the acidity or alkalinity of it) to prevent the rise in mash pH.
I have looked through various sources, but cannot find a recommendation as to the desired alkalinity of sparging water... given that I would assume the lower the number the better. I would suspect anything that is over 60 ppm should be a candidate for acid treatment. Perhaps Martin has a number off the top of his head.
I have looked through various sources, but cannot find a recommendation as to the desired alkalinity of sparging water... given that I would assume the lower the number the better. I would suspect anything that is over 60 ppm should be a candidate for acid treatment. Perhaps Martin has a number off the top of his head.
I have long advocated that sparging water should have an alkalinity of 25 ppm or less (as CaCO3). That is mentioned in Bru'n Water at several points.
Damn! I better go read that again!
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