How do I lager LARGE batch

[Bullka]

We need some advise on how to lager large batches of beer. We typically make 35-45 gal batches using the plastic fermenter shown in the attached picture. We typically use this fermenter for ales and when we make lagers we put the beer into the 7 gallon buckets and put it in the freezer's shown in the back of the picture, which is becoming a pain in the butt. We are wanting to use our fermenter for lagers as well. We are trying to figure a way to keep the beer around 45-55 degrees. We do not have a refrigerator to wheel our fermenter into and to cool the beer in open space.

The only idea that we have come up with so far is to have a reservoir of cold water in our current lagering freezer and use a pump to run water through a stainless steel coil suspended in the fermenter. The temperature would be regulated by having a probe suspended into the fermenter that would turn the freezer and pump on and off depending on temperature. Has anyone tried a set up like this before or do you think this would work? If anyone has any other ideas we would appreciate the input. Thanks in advance.

 

[weirdboy]

Not cold water. Use glycol. I would also use some kind of insulating wrap around the fermenter.


Do you have more than one fermenter? If it were me, I'd find another vessel to lager in. Otherwise, you are stuck with no fermenter until your beer finishes fermenting and then lagering for presumably a long time, meaning you cannot brew for months at a time, as well as there being a longer lag time between having beers ready once you finally package one.

 

[david_42]

You could do it like that, but most large fermenters are controlled by using exterior coils. Since the plastic is thin, it will transfer the heat without much lag. Wrap a water heater blanket around the outside to help hold the coils in place.

 

[doughj1466]

I can't tell how large the freezer is but we lager large batches in multiple sanke kegs in a large chest freezer.

 

[Boodlemania]

Dang, that size batch is just hardcore. Hat's off, man. Hat's off.

 

[DrewBrewTheGreat]

The only idea that we have come up with so far is to have a reservoir of cold water in our current lagering freezer and use a pump to run water through a stainless steel coil suspended in the fermenter.

Pumping water will work in my experience.... I don't see any reason to use glycol. Read somewhere water transfers cold better than glycol.

Pumping water at 40F cools 15 gallon batches to 49-50F in minutes for me. lagring one now. NY York Brew Supply or the something like that has the 50' stainless coil I use for like $60-70. Just guessing, but I bet that is plenty of coil for your needs.

Small fish pump and cooler of ice water will do it. insulate a bit to reduce ice usage.

 

[Shockerengr]

The brewery I help with uses plastic conicals for fermenting in. We've got a glycol chiller with that pumps through nybrewsupply.com stainless coils to maintain temps.

It works out pretty well.

 

[Bullka]

Thanks for all the input!
With DrewBrew's recommendation I think we are going to give it a shot using a 50' 3/8" SS coil.
The price from NY Brew Supply was very reasonable for under $60.
I am going to use one of my half barrel kegs to store the chilled water inside my freezer/fermentor and just run insulated vinyl lines to the SS coil inside the plastic fermentor.
I thought all along this idea should work because it is very similar in concept to how a wort chiller works during the brewing process.
Its just running water that is cooler than the beer it is chilling to bring it down to a desired temperature.
I will be sure to post an update when the project is complete.
We plan on constructing this in the next few months.

 

[audger]

You could do it like that, but most large fermenters are controlled by using exterior coils. Since the plastic is thin, it will transfer the heat without much lag. Wrap a water heater blanket around the outside to help hold the coils in place.

unfortunately the plastic is going to be more of an insulator than the air surrounding it, so most of your cooling power will be lost to ambient air this way.

large fermentors are steel, and jacketed so the liquid is in complete contact with the tank. then another layer of steel and a layer of insulation on top of it. that is how large tank cooling work.

the coil inside the fermentor is going to be your best bet at keeping lagering temps without heavily insulating your fermentor.

Pumping water will work in my experience.... I don't see any reason to use glycol. Read somewhere water transfers cold better than glycol.

depends on the temperature you want, and how well (or not) your fermentor is insulated. glycol is normally kept around 26-28 degrees. you cant do that with water obviously. if you have enough flow rate for 34+ degree water to keep your fermentor where you want it, then you can use water. if you are not able to reach 45-55 degrees that way, you will need to use colder glycol to increase the temp delta, which allows more efficient heat transfer.

 

[DrewBrewTheGreat]

While the fermentation is going (and the pump going on and off)--I don't there is much of a chance of the water in the freezer--freezing.

However, once the fermentation slows that water will want to freeze (unless freezer is overridden by an external thermostat)

The alternative, would be to pump ice water from a cooler, and use the freezer to make the ice needed to refresh the cooler everyday or so.

Just trying to think of a cheap and easy way for you to keep it cold.... glycol ain't cheap and I don't think necessary.

 

[Bullka]

I am planning on putting my temperature controller probe inside the plastic fermentor and when the beer gets too warm it will kick on the pump and the freezer until the beer is chilled.
This may create lag time to both chill the water and the beer, so I always have the option of one probe in the plastic fermentor that will kick on the pump and a separate temp probe in the freezer keeping the water at 34 degrees at all times.
But will have to buy one more controller.
We will just see how it works, but I am the same as you.
The cheaper the build the better, so hopefully I only need 1 temp controller.

 

[DrewBrewTheGreat]

The bigger the container of water in the freezer the better. It takes at least a day if not a couple to freeze a couple 5 gallon buckets solid in my freezer. With the fermentation going--you'll be pumping warmed up water back into the container in the freezer. So my guess during active fermentation the freezer may or may not be able freeze the water in the container. My thought is not likely if the container is large.

However, most people check their beers daily anyway. Just check the freezer everyday and if too much ice is forming--just unplugged the freezer for a bit.

simple, easy, done.

 

[crazyirishman34]

Depending on the temp that you set the freezer at you could just use an aquarium bubbler to keep the water moving and not freezing. Marinas in fresh water locations use bubblers to do the same thing in the winter.

 

[buffalobrewer]

Don't know about lagering that big of a batch, but i like the little fence to keep the spectators away from the kettles!

 

[runningweird]

unfortunately the plastic is going to be more of an insulator than the air surrounding it, so most of your cooling power will be lost to ambient air this way.

large fermentors are steel, and jacketed so the liquid is in complete contact with the tank. then another layer of steel and a layer of insulation on top of it. that is how large tank cooling work.

the coil inside the fermentor is going to be your best bet at keeping lagering temps without heavily insulating your fermentor.

depends on the temperature you want, and how well (or not) your fermentor is insulated. glycol is normally kept around 26-28 degrees. you cant do that with water obviously. if you have enough flow rate for 34+ degree water to keep your fermentor where you want it, then you can use water. if you are not able to reach 45-55 degrees that way, you will need to use colder glycol to increase the temp delta, which allows more efficient heat transfer.

Use salt water.

 

[onthekeg]

I wouldn't actually lager in the conical, can't you transfer to kegs for that in your current refrigerator? If you have a way to keep the conical at 50 deg for a week or so, then keg for lagering.

 

[DrewBrewTheGreat]

I wouldn't actually lager in the conical, can't you transfer to kegs for that in your current refrigerator? If you have a way to keep the conical at 50 deg for a week or so, then keg for lagering.

With 45 gallons, you could ferment at 50F in the conical, and then transfer into three commercial sanke kegs (about 15 gallons each) to lager.

I secondary ferment (just a #10 drilled stopper and airlock) and serve in sanke kegs with my (first) brew setup in Maine. If you have a couple sanke couplers and CO2 tank--it's pretty easy to transfer beer from sanke to sanke-- and a slick set up. Especially for the volume of beer you are fermenting. No lifting the kegs in and out of the freezer with the CO2 transfer.

The dip tubes on sankes are easy to remove once you get the hang of it. A Leatherman (the small flat head screw driver or leather punch tool--don't bother with the "sanke knives" they sell--they are useless crap) and pair of channel locks is all you need (I prefer Sears "Robogrip"--they work very well putting the clip back in pretty effortlessly).

 

[Bullka]

Just got the 316 Stainless Steel 3/8" coil from nybrewsupply.com
It will be a few weeks on the plastic fermentor, I ordered it from a local farm supply company so I don't have to pay for shipping.
The 60 gallon conical only cost $120
I will post more updates as I go... sure hope this works!

 

[Bullka]

Below I am going to give an update.
I have finished the lagering system and thankfully it works!

Here is the picture of our original vessel that we are using to lager in.

I wanted to do a test before I bent the expensive SS Coil and could not return it. I put a full size keg in my freezer and filled one of my boil tanks with around 40 gallons of water and used an old small 20' coil. I figured if a 20' coil could chill the 40 gallons of exposed water, then a 50' SS Coil should have not problem in my enclosed fermentor.

Here is the pump I used, its from harbor freight and was only $35 and worked well.

Here is the keg in my freezer with the pump down in it.

After testing that it would work I installed the SS Coil through the lid and put the temperature probe through the lid so it would turn the pump on and off.

Here is the final setup and the chilling keg.

My conclusion on this setup is that it works but will need a little tweaking. I am losing efficacy through the vinyl lines and the tank not being insulated, which I intent to fix next time.
The fermentor was at 68F for the first 24hours and then it started slowly dropping. Which is fine because the lager yeast said to start at around 68-70F to jump start fermentation. After another 24 hours the temp was down to 60F and by the 3rd day the temp was at 53-54F and held steady for the next two weeks until I did the dactyl rest. Unfortunately the pump had to pretty much run non-stop to keep it at 53-54F. Hopefully the added insulation will make it a little more efficient, which I don't need much.
We kegged it after the dactyl rest and took the temp down to 34F.

Overall we are very happy with this system, no more filling and carting around 8 buckets when we want to do a 40 gallon batch and much easier to drop the trub and fill kegs.

Now on to build my second 60 gallon tank so I can brew an ale in the coming weeks!
Hope this was helpful, let me know if you have any questions.

 

[Jrod]

This is very cool! (No pun intended) I'm just curious how many people participate in the brewing to be able to drink batches that size in a timely manner. When I brew 10 gallon batches the beer is around for quite some time.

And yes insulating the lines and jacketing the fermentor with some hotwater heater wrap would greatly improve your process. I think the efficiency gains would be quite dramatic.

 

[Bullka]

Thanks! That is a good idea with the hot water wrap.

We have 8 people in our group so each of us get 5 gallons per batch.
Every couple months we add something to our system to expedite one of our processes. Its obviously very cheep to do when you split up the costs.
During a brew day we will start brewing at around 8am, transfer our beer from a previous batch to kegs, and cleanup everything by 2-4pm. Makes for a quick brew day which is nice.