How bad does linux suck? (Poll)

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How bad does linux suck?

  • Worst OS ever.

  • Sucks

  • Doesn't suck

  • It will free us from the evil clench of Microsoft and save the world.


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jcarson83

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How bad does linux suck, or not suck if you wish?

I used gentoo for about a month to six weeks and then just gave up and went back to vista. There was a major learning curve that I just wasn't up for at the time. When ever I needed to get something done and didn't have time to mess around something would go wrong. I hear people say how it was so stable and never crashed and I just don't understand how they could say that.
 

farmbrewernw

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Use Ubuntu at home exclusively, it has it's problems but to be honest they are less annoying problems than Winblows problems in my mind, that being said I use Windows exclusively at work.
 

billtzk

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Yes, this should probably be in the debate forum, but it is different from the other debate. This one is specifically about Linux, so it warrants it's own thread.

Linux doesn't suck, but it won't deliver us from the evil of M$ any time in the near future. The corporate business world revolves around M$, especially M$ Office Suite. The M$ Office products are defacto business standards.

Also, I hate to say this since I am a huge fan of Linux, it just isn't ready for prime time (in the corporate business world). It changes too rapidly, and because most software is supported in a cooperative open-source manner, there is no guarantee that software that a business depends on will continue to work compatibly or even exist in future versions.
 

CraigC

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As much as I dislike M$ I think that Linux is lacking in the usability arena. I don't have a lot of experience with it, but I deal with windows all day as a system admin in my job. Linux is an ok OS, but what separates an ok OS from a really good OS are all the little details. The free distros of Linux are useable, but there's a lot missing when it comes to ease of use and the "fit and finish" of the OS. Realistically, I'd rather pay a little money and have something really nice than have a free OS.
 

enderwig

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Maybe starting with a simpler distro than gentoo might not have soured you on linux. Ubuntu or LinuxMint or some such thing might have been more in order. Gentoo usually only gets installed once you have used linux long enough to know that it's a necessity if you want complete control. (No handholding). Arch is a nice midlevel distro if entry level is to simple.
 
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jcarson83

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I tried to install a few other distros (ubuntu, arch, kunduntu) with no luck even getting them to install. I have a friend that is a gentoo jedi that was helping me so it only made sense to go that direction.

I'm not sour enough on it to vote worst ever. Its just such a steep learning curve that I'm not interested in messing with it.

What I don't understand is why some people can say its the most stable os when parts of it crash all the time. Sure you can restart KDE from a console but that is still a crash and most people won't bother learning the command and just restart anyway.
 

enderwig

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What I don't understand is why some people can say its the most stable os when parts of it crash all the time. Sure you can restart KDE from a console but that is still a crash and most people won't bother learning the command and just restart anyway.
I think the 2 main differing views on linux are very similar to a mechanic, and an everyday driver. One doesn't really care how it works, or why it works, just that it does work. The other wants to know every single detail about how it works, can probably start the car without a key, and has little use for most of the "fluff" that comes in most new cars.

Does that make either one of them right or wrong? No, just different viewpoints on the same product. And we can all get along by purchasing and using our own equipment in the way that we see fit. :rockin:

*side note my arch install has been running for over a year without any kind of crash, complete or otherwise.
 

k1v1116

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In my experience Gentoo is one of the very best (fastest and most customizable short of building linux from scratch) linux distributions but not for newcomers. ubuntu is the most newcomer oriented distro that Ive used. but I also like fedora as being fairly straight forward and easy to install/use, it was my first or rather redhat (its predecessor) was.
 

Mutilated1

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Use Ubuntu at home exclusively, it has it's problems but to be honest they are less annoying problems than Winblows problems in my mind, that being said I use Windows exclusively at work.
Me too.

Ubuntu is far superior to any version of Windows ever. Been using it for a couple of years now, and its never crashed on me.
 

drzrma

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Linux would be my home os if it weren't for hardware issues. Tried ubuntu for my latest home computer and loved it, except my mouse didn't work.

Yes, I'm a mouse snob, but no MX1000 = no linux for me. Hurts paying for a new copy of XP, but at least we're not forced into vista yet. I'll probably try it again in six months, or sooner if logitech or razer clean up their acts.
 

Jonnio

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Yeah, you can't compare crashes/stability to never getting it working properly. From my limited experience linux takes a little more to get running correctly, but once its done, its done. Windows can "run" very quickly with little knowledge, but will always want some help now and again. Which reminds me - I need to format/reinstall my Windows desktop since it keeps have an NTFS defragmenter crash.
 

Kevin Dean

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I run Debian on all of my computers. My two phones run Openmoko which is a Linux based OS. My fileserver is running Debian and my wife's computer runs Linux Mint (Ubuntu Based). My computer at work runs Debian.

I have my complaints about Linux but all things considered, not Windows, not Mac OS X does it better.

billtzk said:
I am a huge fan of Linux, it just isn't ready for prime time (in the corporate business world).
That's a gross, and I do mean gross, over simplification. This depends entirely on your business's needs. My office uses Microsoft Office and OpenOffice depending on the age of the system. All of the newer systems run OpenOffice because it's developed to a point where shelling out the license fees for Office simply didn't make sense.

Of course, if you depend on some obscure feature of Office, you're locked in. In my company, while Linux is usable for about 99% of everything we do, the designers are bound to Adobe Creative Suite 3 and that 1% means Windows is a must (though, I'm seriously considering Macs).

I would VERY seriously urge people to take a look at their contingency plan in the event they've got a 1% like that. The Linux vs Windows things is pointless in that case, the only think that matters is that SPECIFIC application and the extreme level of power that vendor has over your business.

billtzk said:
It changes too rapidly
Debian stable releases are on average, supported for three years. Ubuntu (supported commercially by Canonical Ltd.) is supported for 5 and Red Hat offers support for 7 I believe. Windows XP didn't get 7 years, so I think that arguement is rendered invalid.

billtzk said:
because most software is supported in a cooperative open-source manner, there is no guarantee that software that a business depends on will continue to work compatibly or even exist in future versions
On a proposal I wrote this month, I cited the same thing (community developed) as the reason to ABANDON some legacy software. My company works on the schedule of MY COMPANY. The fact that Microsoft's or Adobe's decision to abandon a product or break compatibility with previous versions had way too much influence over how we did work.

Apache, MySQL, KDE, Gnome, Linux (the kernel), a huge number of the GNU userspace utilities.. All of these projects have existed over a decade. Companies like Google, Bank of America, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, IBM, Sun and the like contribute, support and in some cases, actively maintain those open source projects. They've got as much support on the business end as most applications.

But here's the kicker. When those companies decide to drop their products, you've still got the source code. That's a really important thing especially if your legacy application was running on something like PowerPC which is (for most realistic purposes) dead on the workstation since Apple dropped it for Intel. If your hardware crapped out, you'd be forced to abandon or port, the latter being much much easier when your business depends on it.

enderwig said:
Maybe starting with a simpler distro than gentoo might not have soured you on linux.
I won't say "simpler" because Gentoo has some great advantages.That said, there are a LOT of great distros, and I really hope that you give some others a chance to meet your needs.

jcarson83 said:
Its just such a steep learning curve that I'm not interested in messing with it.
In fairness, I've done "blind" studies and to someone who doesn't have Windows or Mac experience to pollute them, both KDE and Gnome are easier to grok than Windows (XP, Vista wasn't out when I did the tests). For someone who doesn't KNOW that the little taskbar at the bottom is where the action happens, they'd NEVER guess that the first step to shutting the system down is to click "Start". On my first Linux days, I thought it was bass ackwards that I couldn't install software with a double click but I consider central repos to be perhaps Linux's single biggest strength.

jcarson83 said:
Sure you can restart KDE from a console but that is still a crash and most people won't bother learning the command and just restart anyway.
My experience has been the total opposite, though I've heard stories of horror stories. I've had systems with 9 months uptime (desktop systems) that got restarted only because the power went out and the UPS died. While I've personally never had a hardware issue with Linux (I build all my systems for Linux from the ground up - they suck at running "compatible" Window) I've got a well-versed Linux guru friend who can't seem to make a damn system work without crashing in three days. Windows, Mac OR Linux. I think some people actually ARE cursed by the computer gods.

enderwig said:
my arch install has been running for over a year without any kind of crash, complete or otherwise.
Yes, but Archers put their stuff in /opt and have no standards! :drunk: Arch is one of my favorite distros, so that jab was entirely playful.

k1v1116 said:
ubuntu is the most newcomer oriented distro that Ive used
Personally, I think the Ubuntu hype hurts Ubuntu. Speaking ONLY from personal experience, I've never had an Ubuntu install that wasn't three kinds of crap within a week. Be it Samba endlessly querying for Windows nodes that don't exist or kernel panics or failed resumes or uncontrolled CPU from basic rock-stable stuff like ALSA.

I frown when I think about the number of people who hear about how good Ubuntu is, try it, have an experience like mine and then go on missions telling people how bad Linux sucks. Fortunately, I was a Linux user well before Ubuntu came around.

There are certainly other distros I'd recommend for newbs but those specific recommendations would require to know a little bit more about the user. Xandros that's pre-installed on Asus Eee PC for instance is great, but Xandros on a stock PC sucks.
 

jds

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Like anything else computer-related, it's a toolbox. You pick up the right toolbox for the job.

SWMBO's laptop is a mac, 'cause I don't have to mess with it much, and she's a pretty decent amateur photog.

My work laptop is running XP, because I need the de-facto business standards, as well as Access, which we use for a couple of irreplaceable databases. Also, I use SketchUp pretty regularly, which isn't supported anywhere BUT on a PC.

My work desktop runs Kubuntu, and I use it to remote into my laptop or any other machines throughout the company that I need access to.

Lastly, the cluster that I use for CFD simulations runs CentOS 4 (Basically, an open RedHat variant). Again, I remote or ssh to it to do major work.

Each piece of the puzzle has its place, and they all work in concert. Could I do EVERYTHING on windows, OSX, or linux? Maybe, but it's just not worth the hassle. What counts is NOT the computer I use to do work, but the quality of the work I do with the computer.
 

McCall St. Brewer

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I'd be using Kubuntu right now on my computer here at work, but I couldn't for the life of me get my Palm Pilot to sync with KPilot.

The only other real problem I had is that I couldn't for the life of me ever successfully burn an installation disc. I downloaded and installed several different burners that were recommended as simple to use to burn ISO CD's, but none of my CD's would work. I ended up ordering one from Canonical and waiting several weeks for it to show up. Once I got that, installation was a breeze.

Everything I need for work (except my Palm Pilot) works perfectly on Kubuntu-- Firefox, OpenOffice, you name it. My printer worked as a plug and play (it's a pain to install it with Windows).

As far as I'm concerned, it's different, but not necessarily clearly better or worse than Windows.
 

Kevin Dean

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McCall St. Brewer said:
The only other real problem I had is that I couldn't for the life of me ever successfully burn an installation disc. I downloaded and installed several different burners that were recommended as simple to use to burn ISO CD's, but none of my CD's would work. I ended up ordering one from Canonical and waiting several weeks for it to show up. Once I got that, installation was a breeze.
I know next to nothing about Windows, with one exception - I know the best tools to use to replace Windows with Linux.

http://isorecorder.alexfeinman.com/isorecorder.htm is highly recommended for Windows users interested in a simple, basic tool to burn bootable Linux LiveCDs.
 
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jcarson83

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My main reason for posting this thread was to find out if there were many people like me out there in this community, not a linux head community, that have tried and failed at taking the step. My secret reason was looking for a little motivation to maybe make the attempt again when I get around to upgrading my system. Perhaps I will in six months or so when I can build a system that is more hardware compatible (no ATI chips) that will make the transition easier. Until then I stand by my original position that linux sucks and plug n play kicks ass. I like to be able to customize my desktop background but don't give a rip about customizing the frickin IRQ my graphics card is on (don't really even know if that makes sense in the 21st century).
 

McCall St. Brewer

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Well, I'm anything but a computer geek. At work I just want my computer to do its job. At home, though, I am kind of interested in computers, but again, there is a very low limit to my geekiness.

If you just want your computer to work and you're not interested in how it works, or doing much of anything to make it work better, then I think Windows is still the way to go.

My short experience with Linux has told me, though, that if I knew a little bit more about computers, I'd probably throw Windows out the window. I have really been surprised at how good it is in certain respects and how easy it can be to get stuff to work. On the other hand, if something doesn't work for me, then I'm really stuck. The people who know how to fix it don't speak the same language as I do.
 

Jonnio

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if something doesn't work for me, then I'm really stuck. The people who know how to fix it don't speak the same language as I do.
I think you hit the nail on the head with the current issue with most Linux distros - All I can find for issues that I had are guides that say type this then this etc... they never explain what the heck your doing so that if it doesn't work you can make an informed decision on where to go next.

I still stand by my original statement though, once its running, it just runs. I am ok at keeping my own Windows boxes going, my parents aren't.
 

MikeFlynn74

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people say how it was so stable and never crashed and I just don't understand how they could say that.
When did yours crash?

Yeah, you can't compare crashes/stability to never getting it working properly. From my limited experience linux takes a little more to get running correctly, but once its done, its done
Ive been using Linux Mint- Ubuntu for 6 months now. It took very little to learn and has yet to need an update or reboot. It has auto discovery features and plug and play just like windows.
 

Jonnio

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Ive been using Linux Mint- Ubuntu for 6 months now. It took very little to learn and has yet to need an update or reboot. It has auto discovery features and plug and play just like windows.
That is some instances, then others, like my laptop. I have about 5 hours invested trying to get the Broadcom wireless card working and can't get it yet. I am confident that once its fixed it will be for good, but in the meantime, setup has the potential to be problematic.
 

Jonnio

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I was doing an Ubuntu install...I found guides that used the NDISWrapper to "make it work" but had minimal amounts of luck.
 

sause

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I was doing an Ubuntu install...I found guides that used the NDISWrapper to "make it work" but had minimal amounts of luck.
I had the same thing for about a year. Then I did a clean install of ubuntu. Installed NDISWrapper and then went to System>Admin>Hardware drivers and enabled the card and it worked. If you haven't got a whole lot on your system I suggest trying.
 

98EXL

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I think this has been one of the better 'debate' threads here in a long time.

With that being said, I am a MS fanboy. However, it's only really because of the fact that since I've been in IT, that's been 97% of the platforms my companies have ever used. Now I've used many flavors of Linux before, mainly RedHat Enterprise, but just started tinkering with it at home.

My router runs it, I just installed, DSL on an old PIII, that's great, and getting ready to put it on the PS3 as well....next project is a small cluster of old crap, just for the hell of it. My buddy (the one that I usually talk about the most here) is a Linux Fanatic, I call him for Linux help, and he calls me for Microsuck help. Anyway, he has really been pushing me to learn more Linux commands, and wants me to compile my own Kernel soon.

I like Linux, lots of flavors, it's good stuff, but I'd never make my parents, or my woman ever use it, they would probably not like it, but they aren't nerds either.
 

98EXL

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I downloaded YellowDog for my PS3, and damn CD1 wouldn't boot, I'm kinda pissed about it
 

Tankenator

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I tried to install a few other distros (ubuntu, arch, kunduntu) with no luck even getting them to install. I have a friend that is a gentoo jedi that was helping me so it only made sense to go that direction.

I'm not sour enough on it to vote worst ever. Its just such a steep learning curve that I'm not interested in messing with it.

What I don't understand is why some people can say its the most stable os when parts of it crash all the time. Sure you can restart KDE from a console but that is still a crash and most people won't bother learning the command and just restart anyway.
You, by using gentoo, are by definition using a distribution which is custom made. This is YOU making the distribution, and YOU configuring it, not someone else. Gentoo has had (in the past, i havent run it in quite a while) issues with squashing configuration files with updates etc. which may produce crashes etc. If you would try with a binary style distribution (debian would be a great example) with good package control I think your issues here would vanish.

All the complaints about the rapidity of movement in the opensource community pretty much disappears when you talk about debian, they are pretty slow to adopt new stuff, and make sure its rock solid before including it in the server version....

Ubuntu and linux mint are just two of modern OS distributions which are based on debian (meaning mostly that they use apt subsystem to conduct package management--dependencies (which are sorta like dll files in windows) are handled automatically)

So to answer your question, it does not suck, you are a minor troll here and you need to try a simpler distribution before you make judgements on the fitness of linux
 

Tankenator

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I was doing an Ubuntu install...I found guides that used the NDISWrapper to "make it work" but had minimal amounts of luck.
Please note, wireless cards are an issue, but this is NOT the fault of Linux--the manufacturers will not release specs on them, and will not release drivers at all (in the case of broadcom) so linux is reliant on hacks like NDISWrapper to shoehorn windows drivers to make them work.

In a perfect world all would be like ralink and submit the source code for the things (i have a msi wireless pci board on the 2500 chipset and it works brilliantly out of the box)

Additionally, ubuntu made a design decision to have 'network manager' be the wireless selector/controller for the gui. I believe this was a mistake, the better of the gui controllers is wicd--works!!! Try it if you get ndiswrapper working with your card....

Hit me up if you need help, ill do what i can....
 

98EXL

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you md5 the iso image before you burnt it???
yessir, I don't think there was that, make this a bootable image, line somewhere, the iso was perfectly fine, and no, I didn't pull the uber-n00b move and burn the iso onto the CD as a file :D
 

Kevin Dean

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Jonnio said:
That is some instances, then others, like my laptop. I have about 5 hours invested trying to get the Broadcom wireless card working and can't get it yet.
There's always the "Linux hardware detection sucks" arguement but it usually comes from people who buy off-the-shelf computers pre-installed with Windows. Broadcom is like the LAST Wifi chip maker that refuses to open source their drivers. Even Atheros, which was once only slightly less "evil" to Linux users than Sauron himself, has realized that they're merely alienating their customers by not doing it.

My point - you're using the wrong tools for the wrong job. This isn't your fault, but it's not Linux's either.

I seriously urge people, before complaining about Linux's shortcomings in the hardware arena, install a fresh Windows system from an OEM disk. I have YET to have a Windows install auto-detect and install my sound drivers and my wired network card, let alone auto-detect my screen resolution, get sound working flawlessly, detect and CONFIGURE my wired ethernet and so on.

Computers are tricky summabitches, and comparing a heavily customized install of Windows, suited to your specific hardware, versus Linux autodetecting from a pool of essentially "anything possible" is kind of unfair. :)

For the record, Mac OS X, which is designed to run only on Macs, installs with less issues on a standard PC than Windows does. :p
 
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jcarson83

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So to answer your question, it does not suck, you are a minor troll here and you need to try a simpler distribution before you make judgements on the fitness of linux
Your almost as sensitive as a democrat during a Bush campaign. I did try some simple versions, at the recommendation of my gentoo geek friend, before gentoo. I either couldn't get them to install or ran into other problems along the way. One problem was I couldn't get 3d rendering to work and I wanted to play Enemy Territory.

When did yours crash?
Mostly during install from a live cd on the multiple distros I tried. Then after I got it up and running good (actually my friend got it up and running good) KDE would crash every once in awhile after I installed compiz. To be expected I guess since it was really still in beta. Then for some reason it thought my hard drives were going bad. Two identical drives on a raid controller, not using raid, and it was telling me they had the exact same number of bad sectors and they were growing at the same rate. That just doesn't happen. So one day a bunch of stuff just disappears into the black hole of my bad sectors and instead of reinstalling a bunch of packages I just put Vista back on and I haven't had a problem since.
 

98EXL

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I seriously urge people, before complaining about Linux's shortcomings in the hardware arena, install a fresh Windows system from an OEM disk. I have YET to have a Windows install auto-detect and install my sound drivers and my wired network card, let alone auto-detect my screen resolution, get sound working flawlessly, detect and CONFIGURE my wired ethernet and so on.
So my ultimate unattended DVD that has all of the drivers for all of my crap around the house doesn't count I assume ;) :p

But you are right though, especially if your hardware is OEM hardware, those drivers can be tricky little whores
 

bull8042

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I was prepared to lay out a lengthy post, bit it seems as if the major points have already been made. The world nearly runs on Linux in terms of servers, it is brutally stable when properly configured, immune to virii as long as the user doesn't run as root, and can do everything as well as Windows in the hands of a competent user. However, Windows has it's place. It is a wonderful tool for people who may be unable or simply wish NOT to learn a lot of geeky stuff. Never would I install Linux on my parent's computers as the phone calls would be never-ending. However, after much grumbling, the SWMBO took off with it and uses it daily. I never explained "sudo" and so I have limited my problems...hehehe
As far as using the argument of Windows is better because most businesses use it is just wrong. I am forced to use it at work because there just are not any suitable replacements in Linux for Solidworks, AutoCAD, or Promis electrical design software. Linux is more than capable, but the need has to be great enough to encourage someone out there in the open source community to spend the resources required to develope the code.
Some people just want to jump in a car, turn the key, and drive. Others like to mod the powertrain, add lights and winches, and generally wrench on the thing until the wee hours of the morning.... just for fun. Linux vs Windows is along the same lines.
If you want the ability to get under the hood and tweak the kernel, Linux is your OS. If you want to turn the key and go and forgo the freedom of customization, then Windows is for you.
Unfailing stability and security and freedom from virus - Linux
Security vulnerabilities and a bit more prone to breakage, but much easier to just "click and go" - Windows
 
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jcarson83

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VMware works great if you are familiar with linux and want to use it at work while still using windows apps.
 

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