hop utilization vs adding LME late

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ArcLight

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Why is it necessary to add a lot of the LME at the start of the boil, as opposed to boiling the hops and adding the LME later?

The one major difference is a low gravity wort will allow more of the Hops Alpha acids to disolve.

Can't one just boil the hops in water for lets say 30 minutes, then add the LME, boil another 5 and be done with it. (Yes - there are also the flavoring and aroma hops, they can be boiled in paralelle in another pot.

Or am I misisng something?
 

unionrdr

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Why is it necessary to add a lot of the LME at the start of the boil, as opposed to boiling the hops and adding the LME later?

The one major difference is a low gravity wort will allow more of the Hops Alpha acids to disolve.

Can't one just boil the hops in water for lets say 30 minutes, then add the LME, boil another 5 and be done with it. (Yes - there are also the flavoring and aroma hops, they can be boiled in paralelle in another pot.

Or am I misisng something?
From my wanderings in the brewing world,I found "hop teas" aren't that bad for aroma/flavor additions in the BK before adding DME/LME,or pre-hopped malts. Say,15 mins or so. But the bittering side of those additions are best done in a light malt wort to absorb the Alpha Acids better. And boy,does it ever work! And you don't need to boil aroma/flavor hops in another pot. I use plain DME's in my brews,so I boil 2.5G of water,add the 3lbs of DME & stir. Then 1oz hops at 20mins (for a little extra bittering),.5oz hops at 10mins. Then 10 mins under a lid at flame out with the last .5oz.
I add the pre-hopped LME can after that steep to keep it from getting darkened. At 17 days,I've got an ale that's about the color of a pilsner or Kolsh,with a wee amber blush. Not to mention,5.3%ABV as of today.:rockin:
 

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Why is it necessary to add a lot of the LME at the start of the boil, as opposed to boiling the hops and adding the LME later?

The one major difference is a low gravity wort will allow more of the Hops Alpha acids to disolve.

Can't one just boil the hops in water for lets say 30 minutes, then add the LME, boil another 5 and be done with it. (Yes - there are also the flavoring and aroma hops, they can be boiled in paralelle in another pot.

Or am I misisng something?
Because of the rate of the hops oils utilization. A 30 minute boil isn't really enough time to get the oils fully isomerized. You'll get far less IBUs out of a 30 minute boil than a 60 minute boil.

It's not necessary to add the LME at the start of the boil, and I would recommend adding the bulk of it at the end of the boil.
 

unionrdr

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I'm noticing that DME doesn't change color like LME does. But the three pounds I used in 2.5G of water did help make a nice little extra bittering with the US Perle at 20mins. The Czech Saaz .5oz at 10,& -10. The total bittering (with the cooper's OS draught can added) was a little sharp in today's hydrometer test at 17 days,though. I'll give it 1 more week until I test it again to clean up a bit more. But I do think this part addition of extract at the beginning with 3 hop additions has merit. We'll know in 4 weeks or so.
 

david_42

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The one major difference is a low gravity wort will allow more of the Hops Alpha acids to disolve.
This has been proven to be wrong. The rate at which alpha acids dissolve and the maximum concentration turn out to be related to the concentrate of alpha acids. Since high AA beers are almost always high ABV beers, the mistake was difficult to spot.

Boil time is the key, as yooper said.
 
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ArcLight

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>>This has been proven to be wrong. The rate at which alpha acids dissolve and the maximum concentration turn out to be related to the concentrate of alpha acids. Since high AA beers are almost always high ABV beers, the mistake was difficult to spot.


OK - this is good to know. Thank you all for responding, I appreciate your help and knowledge.
 

unionrdr

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I hope we helped rather than confounded. But,as I said,hop tea is ok,part DME add for hop additions seems to be better so far. And yes,AA% obviously comes into play,but how much,when,& added to what seems to be part of the equation as well. From what my own experiences indicate thus far,anyway. At least,our perception of them...:drunk::tank::cross:
 

smyrnaquince

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Because of the rate of the hops oils utilization. A 30 minute boil isn't really enough time to get the oils fully isomerized. You'll get far less IBUs out of a 30 minute boil than a 60 minute boil.

It's not necessary to add the LME at the start of the boil, and I would recommend adding the bulk of it at the end of the boil.
Let's say I have an extract recipe that uses 2 cans of LME. If I put in the hops at 60 minutes, plus one can of LME (where the recipe calls for both), then add the second can of LME at 5 minutes along with the final hop addition, would that be better/worse/the same as adding all the LME at the beginning as called for in the original recipe?

Also, I assume that adding the second can would cool the wort and kill the boil. If so, should I wait for the wort to come back to a boil before adding the final hops and timing the last 5 minutes of the boil?

Would I have to make any other adjustments (hop quantities, hop addition time, boiling time, etc.?
 

emacgee

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I feel like you'll want to boil your extract for the full 60 minutes to utilize the hot break as well as the head retaining properties of your hops.
 

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I feel like you'll want to boil your extract for the full 60 minutes to utilize the hot break as well as the head retaining properties of your hops.

LME doesn't need a hot break- or even a boil at all, for that matter, since it's already been processed by the manufacturer. It has nothing to do with head retention from the hops (?) :drunk:
 

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Let's say I have an extract recipe that uses 2 cans of LME. If I put in the hops at 60 minutes, plus one can of LME (where the recipe calls for both), then add the second can of LME at 5 minutes along with the final hop addition, would that be better/worse/the same as adding all the LME at the beginning as called for in the original recipe?

Also, I assume that adding the second can would cool the wort and kill the boil. If so, should I wait for the wort to come back to a boil before adding the final hops and timing the last 5 minutes of the boil?

Would I have to make any other adjustments (hop quantities, hop addition time, boiling time, etc.?
I'd probably put even less than a whole can of LME in at the beginning- maybe only 1/2 a can or so. I think adding the LME at the end of the boil will give you a far better beer than adding it all at the beginning. It'll be lighter in color, and twangy, and less carmelly thick. It will also have less maillard reactions, so it will not taste less "extract-y".

No other adjustments are necessary.
 

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Also, I assume that adding the second can would cool the wort and kill the boil. If so, should I wait for the wort to come back to a boil before adding the final hops and timing the last 5 minutes of the boil?
This is exactly what I logged in for. Anyone have the answer?
 

unionrdr

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I don't double up on LME's. I use 1 Pre-hopped can at the very end. You don't want to boil off the hop profile & caramelize the LME,even a little bit. That's what makes it dark,& have less flavor if it's pre-hopped. Having said that,I use 3lbs of plain DME in a 2.5G boil,a 20min hop addition for a little bittering. Then,a half ounce hop addition at 10 mins,another .5oz at flame out for 10mins. THEN add the LME. No scorching,no carmelization,no darkening. I have one in primary now to prove that out.
 

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This is exactly what I logged in for. Anyone have the answer?
Yeah, adding the extract (LME or DME) does kill the boil. You should take it off the heat to add it (which kills the boil) and then the cooler extract takes a few minutes to warm up and start boiling again when put back on the burner.

That's why I started adding the extract at flame out. It's still hot enough to pasteurize the extract, but it's ok to kill the boil.
 

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So do you wait for the boil to get going again before you restart your hop/boil timer - say if you want to do another 10 or 5 min addition?
 

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So do you wait for the boil to get going again before you restart your hop/boil timer - say if you want to do another 10 or 5 min addition?
I could be wrong here, but I think if the wort is CLOSE to boiling, you will be fine letting the hop timer continue to run. I can't imagine that alpha acids are released/absorbed a whole lot more at 212 degrees than 210 degrees or so, but again, I could be wrong.
 

unionrdr

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Well,what I was referring to was do your steeping grains 1st,get through the foam up (if going this route),then add DME(s). Otherwise,yes,it took us 1-3mins to get back to a gentle,rolling boil. Then start your hop additions. We both added the LME's at the end after 10 min hop steep. I/we did that on NHB's day weekend,& they're coming along great. Gunna check FG on hers Sunday,& if the same,into the bottles. Mine maybe mid-week. But,anyway,they're both light colored ales. So this partial malt idea does work.
 

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I add most of my LME at the end of boil. I thought I read somewhere that DME needs to be boiled.... any merit to this claim?
 

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I add most of my LME at the end of boil. I thought I read somewhere that DME needs to be boiled.... any merit to this claim?
DME goes through a hot break if you boil it, where it breaks down the complex proteins into more basic amino acids, among other chemical processes I can't speak intelligibly about. Among other things, this gives you a clearer finished product. I've also read oxidation is a greater risk if you don't let DME go through a hot break. Not to say boiling the DME is necessary, but it is recommended in all literature I've read.

With the hot break, be vigilant not to let it become too violent and boil over. A boil over during the hot break can be prevented by removing the wort from heat repeatedly until foaming subsides, keeping the temperature just below boiling until the wort changes from a cloudy color to a dark, clearer color, and/or stirring the foam back into the wort.
 

unionrdr

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I noticed when stirring DME into boiling water that no grains were steeped in,the hot break isn't near as violent. That is to say,it doesn't foam up near as much. But my beer is a bit clearer,faster at this point. It'll be three weeks ago tomorrow that I pitched the yeast in it.
 

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Because of the rate of the hops oils utilization. A 30 minute boil isn't really enough time to get the oils fully isomerized. You'll get far less IBUs out of a 30 minute boil than a 60 minute boil.

It's not necessary to add the LME at the start of the boil, and I would recommend adding the bulk of it at the end of the boil.
I have three high AA hops that I wanted to use in my next batch and I was trying to figure out a way to do it without having crazy high IBUs.

I have 1 oz of Sorrachi (11%), Columbus (15%), and Simcoe (12%) and I wanted my hop schedule to look something like this:

1 oz. Columbus (@ 60min)
1 oz. Simcoe (@ 30min)
1 oz. Sorrachi (@ 5min)


... but it comes out to be about 123 IBUs.

Someone suggested I do

.5 oz. Columbus (@ 30min)
.5 oz. Columbus (@ 25min)
.5 oz. Simcoe (@ 15min)
.5 oz. Simcoe (@ 10min)
1 oz. Sorrachi (@ 5min)


It comes out to 65 IBUs or so. I guess my real question is, if you boil high Alpha Acid hops for a shorter period of time to get lower IBUs is there a effect on the beer because the oils don't have enough time to really retain the bitterness or is it OK to do it the way my peer suggested?
 

unionrdr

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Things have changed since I 1st posted in this thread. I started using half of the 3lb bag of DME (1.5lb) when the water in the BK boils. Then do my hop additions. But I alter that depending on the style I'm brewing.
When doing an average gravity ale with my "normal" 2oz of 2 different hops,I do 1oz @ 20,.5oz of 2nd hop @ 10,remaining .5oz @ flame out for 10mins.
In the IPA I have fermenting now,I did 1.5oz of Columbus @ 25,count down 8mins,30 seconds. Then add 1.5oz of Nugget,& count down 8:30 again. Then added 1.5oz of Cascade for remaining time til flame out.
I then added the remaining DME & cooper's OS Draught can (LME) & stir well to incorporate. The combo of Munton's plain light DME & the OS draught give that DFH-ish malt profile. Cover & steep for 15 mins or so.
I saved .5oz of each for dry hopping.
I thought that since most bittering is from 60-45 minutes,that less bittering & more flavor/aroma will be had at 25 minutes on down. To my current understanding/experience. That & knowledge gained here on HBT.:mug:
 
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