Hop Question

[GHBWNY]

The batch I have in ferm right now is a Cal. Common from an extract kit. The recipe called for First Gold hops at the end of the boil, but instead, they substituted Cascade, which I didn't know until after getting it home and starting the batch and then reading the little insert that explained the change. Any guesses as to how that may affect final taste/aroma as compared to having used First Gold?

Also --- the Saflager s-23 in the kit had a "use by" date of 11-13. I used it anyway and it seems to be working. Day 6 in ferm and still perking steadily.

Overall, not impressed with the kit company --- or LHBS. This will probably my last extract kit brew.

 

[ricshayne]

Your LHBS is weak for selling you yeast that old, some kits are really good, Brewers Best makes some good ones, if you don't want to do kits anymore just hit up the recipes forum on this site, there's some good stuff there!

 

[Puddlethumper]

Your beer will probably taste OK with the Cascade hops, although it may not taste like you would expect from a California Common. The style is usually formed around the use of Northern Brewer hops. When you have yours ready to serve buy a bottle of Anchor Steam and compare it to the beer you made. Both will be good, but you should be able to pick up on the differences.

And +1 on the comment about a weak lhbs

 

[GHBWNY]

Your beer will probably taste OK with the Cascade hops, although it may not taste like you would expect from a California Common. The style is usually formed around the use of Northern Brewer hops. When you have yours ready to serve buy a bottle of Anchor Steam and compare it to the beer you made. Both will be good, but you should be able to pick up on the differences.

And +1 on the comment about a weak lhbs

Not sure the young fellow at the LHBS is knowlegeable re: rotating stock as are his parents and grandparents who own the store. Plus, I don't think there is a use-by date on the outside of the box. Not making excuses for the store, but he has been extremely helpful the past few months and he was decent enough to give me a free bottle of Anchor Steam when I bought the kit, so I can do a side-by-side when mine is ready. Can't wait. However, the doggone stuff is STILL fermenting after 7 days!

 

[Puddlethumper]

However, the doggone stuff is STILL fermenting after 7 days!

Sounds like a good thing! Cheers!

 

[GHBWNY]

Sounds like a good thing! Cheers!

Make that 8 days!

 

[Puddlethumper]

Make that 8 days!

What is the temperature of your fermenting beer?

 

[GHBWNY]

What is the temperature of your fermenting beer?

Ambient room temp has been c. 62F for the entire ferm period. Yeah, makes me wonder, too...

 

[BrewWNC]

I agree with the others. The hop substitution will likely make it taste differently than what may be expected and the lhbs (regardless of how helpful or knowledgable they are) should not have given you that yeast and should have told you about the hop change.

I'm glad it is working though I'd I'm sure all will turn out great.

 

[Puddlethumper]

I've had no personal experience with S-23 but a quick visit to MoreBeer's website tells us that it is best in the 48-59F range. Although your 62F is definitely on the cool side, you are still ~10F warmer than the mid-range of the recommended fermentation temps. That may explain the protracted airlock activity. It may also yield a beer with some flavors you weren't really looking for.

+1 to the comment above about the lhbs. Although I am sure they have been very nice in their dealings with you, there is a big difference between nice and competent. I'll take a grouchy old fart that knows what he's talking about every day over a really nice air-headed kid.

I do wish you well.

 

[GHBWNY]

I've had no personal experience with S-23 but a quick visit to MoreBeer's website tells us that it is best in the 48-59F range. Although your 62F is definitely on the cool side, you are still ~10F warmer than the mid-range of the recommended fermentation temps. That may explain the protracted airlock activity. It may also yield a beer with some flavors you weren't really looking for.

I knew I'd be taking a bit of a chance with this beer, inasmuch as I don't have the ability to control for a colder ferm temp. I pitched at around 59F wort temp and it has stayed around 60-62F amb. temp. Bubbling in the airlock this AM has slowed to nearly half what it was last night, so I'm hoping for complete cessation of activity soon.

Yeah, given the hop exchange, the yeast exp. date, the temp variation, it may not turn out as expected. I'll let it ride another week after bubbling has ceased and take a reading. Then after a few days, another, etc.. I'm in no hurry here and I know time can only help. Being an extract kit, I wonder if there is a little more latitude for the variations that occured? In the end, if it tastes good, that's all I can hope for.

 

[Puddlethumper]

In the end, if it tastes good, that's all I can hope for.

I was thinking about this thread this morning and it occurred to me that California Common beers are lagers. Did you know that or did the the lhbs guy tell you that?

As far as the finished beer goes, you might be pleasantly surprised. One thing I have learned is that beer seems to be pretty forgiving stuff. Although your beer may not turn out very close to style, it may be an enjoyable beer to drink anyway.

For your next attempt may I suggest you use a really simple ale recipe?

Cheers!

 

[GHBWNY]

I was thinking about this thread this morning and it occurred to me that California Common beers are lagers. Did you know that or did the the lhbs guy tell you that?

As far as the finished beer goes, you might be pleasantly surprised. One thing I have learned is that beer seems to be pretty forgiving stuff. Although your beer may not turn out very close to style, it may be an enjoyable beer to drink anyway.

For your next attempt may I suggest you use a really simple ale recipe?

Cheers!

I researched the Cal. Common style prior to starting this batch and knew it was a lager-yeast beer fermented at ale temps, although slightly cooler-than-normal ale temp is preferable, even bringing up the temp towards the end of ferm.. Of the AG recipes I read, no two were the same, which makes me wonder where the "common" in Cal. Common comes from. Interestingly enough, one AG recipe called for a 2-3 week ferm. time before bottling. So, even though mine is an extract kit, maybe my extended ferm time isn't indicative of a problem.

For a lager-ale hybrid, I don't think my temp will be an issue here, nor will the past-use-by-date yeast. Evidently, it is flocculating actively. Mid-afternoon today (day 9), I was still getting a bubble every 40 sec. in the airlock. Like you say, I might expect a taste slightly non-characteristic of say, an Anchor Steam, but I agree that the chances of it still being a tasty brew are very good, if not unique. Maybe I'll have to call it a "Cal. Un-Common".

 

[Puddlethumper]

. Maybe I'll have to call it a "Cal. Un-Common".

LOL - Great idea!

Put up a post when you taste it. I'll be interested in how it turns out.

Cheers!

 

[GHBWNY]

LOL - Great idea!

Put up a post when you taste it. I'll be interested in how it turns out.

Cheers!

Will do!!

 

[drainbamage]

FWIW, The Joy of Homebrewing has a Cali. Common recipe that uses Perle for bittering and Cascade for aroma. You may end up with a little more citrus than Anchor Steam, but it should still be good.

 

[GHBWNY]

FWIW, The Joy of Homebrewing has a Cali. Common recipe that uses Perle for bittering and Cascade for aroma. You may end up with a little more citrus than Anchor Steam, but it should still be good.

Actually, this recipe has 2 oz. of Pilgrim (pellets) and 1 oz. Cascade in it, and initially, it was extremely citrusy- --- almost to the point of being offensive --- smelling thru the airlock at start of ferm. But it has backed off quite a bit. I'm hoping for a good balance of bitter/aroma with this hop combo. I'm also going to let it age out at least 4 weeks after bottle cond. before making a serious assessment.

I guess traditionally, Northern Brewer is the bittering hop of choice for an AG brew of this style, while Cascade is apparently a good aroma hop choice. Which makes me wonder why they would have scheduled First Gold as an aroma hop in the kit to begin with. The insert that came with the substitution said that the change to Cascade was made due to an issue with "hop availability". I also noticed just today that this same CC kit from True Brew recently listed on another site uses even a different hop (AND malt) than those in the kit I bought. I could see all the different variations on a style in an AG recipe, but in a kit?!

 

[Puddlethumper]

You're going to be so much more comfortable just working from recipes instead of kits. Make something that sounds good to you. Decide what you like and don't like about it. Then either tweak that recipe and try again or try another recipe.

Right now I'm doing research on a good Fat Tire Ale clone. Almost all say they are very close to the original. That is part of the fun of this hobby. And the learning never stops!

 

[drainbamage]

You're going to be so much more comfortable just working from recipes instead of kits. Make something that sounds good to you. Decide what you like and don't like about it. Then either tweak that recipe and try again or try another recipe.

Right now I'm doing research on a good Fat Tire Ale clone. Almost all say they are very close to the original. That is part of the fun of this hobby. And the learning never stops!

Agreed. I was much happier when I moved past kits. They were ok, but there was always something missing, it seemed like. Brewing off recipes lets you learn a lot more.

 

[GHBWNY]

Agreed. I was much happier when I moved past kits. They were ok, but there was always something missing, it seemed like. Brewing off recipes lets you learn a lot more.

I'm all for it. Just need to get a little more experience and confidence, but I think I'm ready to move to the next level. My wife's friend's husband has being doing AG for several years and is doing a workshop next month. I may hold off doing an AG recipe until after I attend his seminar.

I know what you mean about "something missing" in a kit brew. Maybe that something is the real "craft" in craft-brewing. If you think of 'crafting' something as creating, molding, shaping something, there's not a lot of opportunity for that in a pre-assembled kit.

 

[Puddlethumper]

If you think of 'crafting' something as creating, molding, shaping something, there's not a lot of opportunity for that in a pre-assembled kit.

Very well said. And that workshop sounds like a great opportunity to both make connections with other brewers and see the process in action.

Brewing from a recipe is much like cooking from a recipe. Kits are like making a box of Kraft macaroni and cheese.