Hop pairing with thiolized yeast for an IPL

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cactusgarrett

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This isn't so much about generating thiols, but more regarding what hops to use to pair with the flavors that come from the thiolized yeast doing their thing to yield a synergized brew.

I plan on brewing up something along the lines of an IPL with Lunar Crush; generating thiols via mash hopping (cascade) and not adding any whirlpool or dry hop charges. However, I still want a good bitterness and hop backbone, so I'm curious: what are people using for boil/kettle hops to supplement the expected flavor from thiols? It seems like all these thiolized yeasts produce roughly similar "passion fruit, guava, and New Zealand Sauvignon blanc fruitiness", so if you were to put together an IPL that will contain those flavors, what kettle hopping scheme would you use?
 
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cactusgarrett

cactusgarrett

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My gut reaction is to hit something around 40 IBU (1.055 OG), and complement the fruit/guava flavors instead of piling on or adding to them. Trying to avoid the Mosaic/Citra cliche, though.
 
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cactusgarrett

cactusgarrett

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Went with Galaxy at 30min and Sabro at 5min. I've never used Sabro before, and was pleasantly surprised (and remembered everyone's coconut experiences) when I popped open that bag. Happily fermenting away, should be interesting if nothing else.
 

SanPancho

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so im waiting on my first lager to carb, nothing but mash hops and an incongnito-like product of citra, no dry hops. so same boat as you, just different hop product in the kettle. i let the mash hops provide the bulk of IBUS. i did saaz, cascade, and bit of idaho 7 (from "survivables" list) to get alot of different hop compounds in there and see what would happen. no dry hops to avoid pulling thiols out.

i think its kind of funny you say citra/mosaic is cliche but galaxy isnt. or were you referring to the combo?

TBH im not sure coconut sounds great with the sav blanc/ passionfruit, but galaxy does overpower so perhaps it will be slight/supporting flavor as opposed to prominent sabro coconut which happens.

the hard part about building beers with the thiolizing yeasts is stepping outside the bounds of the few varieties shown to have lots of unbound thiols. at least for me. searches for thiol potential of various hops is coming up with alotta nothing. i'm going to be doing my rye ipa soon with simcoe/cascade, but in that case i'm hoping the thiols will be the compliment and the hop additions will be the focus. so yeah, for now until we have better lists of unbound thiols in hops, we're probably limited to using the thiol flavors as either the base or the accent, but coordinating those flavors is a given. seems like alot of the southern hemisphere and some new school american hops are the way to go.
 

couchsending

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Be careful when boiling Galaxy. It can create a rather harsh bitterness due to the high polyphenol content. Vic secret can be especially bad as well.

There’s a great CB&B podcast on “California Pilsner” that’s a great listen. Bob from HPB essentially invented the style and Timbo is one of the best hoppy beers I’ve had in my life, and I’ve had a lot.

He’s using Michigan grown Saaz through the boil then whirlpooling and DH with a large charge of Citra/Mosaic.

If you’re using thiolized yeast look to hops with high content of bound thiols to use on the hotside. Saaz, Cascade, Calypso, Motueka, Perle, Southern Cross, Nelson, Riwaka are some great examples.

DH with all the usuals.. Citra, Mosaic, Nelson, Strata, Motueka, 586, Simcoe but at a slightly lower hopping rate than you would for a similar ABV beer using normal non thiolized yeast. No real need to go over 1.5#/bbl equivalent DH.

At my brewery we’re releasing two beers next week that are mostly MI grown Saaz in the kettle, Southern Cross in the WP, and a blend of Nelson, Strata, Motueka in the DH at a ratio of 60% Nelson, 34% Strata, 6% Motueka. One is being fermented with Lunar Crush, the other with 34/70. It will be interesting to see the differences. They are drastically different beers as of right now that’s for
sure.
 
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cactusgarrett

cactusgarrett

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If you’re using thiolized yeast look to hops with high content of bound thiols to use on the hotside.
All good info. Thanks for the recc on West Coast Pils (CB&B Ep 257 for anyone looking to follow along, I believe). Good warning about Galaxy. I took a more heavy-handed thiol flavor approach with this first go-around of Lunar Crush (no WP, minimal DH), but for future use I'll try to strike more of a balance between thiols and more standard hopping varieties and schemes. I ultimately went with:

87g Cascade mash hop 60min (1.08 lb/bbl)
24 IBU Galaxy for 30min (0.22 lb/bbl)
28g Sabro at 5min (0.35 lb/bbl)
DH (cold) 33g Cashmere for 24 hr (0.41 lb/bbl) - yet to be done, awaiting terminal gravity
 

tracer bullet

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Please do report back with how it turns out. I haven't tried thiolized yeast yet but it seems a bit like - all bets are off - as far as what you'll get from the hops, or not get. The results may be very similar or may be so completely different it's like learning all over again.
 
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cactusgarrett

cactusgarrett

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Please do report back with how it turns out.
Will do.
it seems a bit like - all bets are off - as far as what you'll get from the hops, or not get.
Well, as discussed in another thread, it seems like there's an extra wrinkle when it comes to these thiolized yeasts, in that one might not behave the same due to their genetic makeup: IRC7 (Cosmic Punch) vs PatB (Star Party, Lunar Crush, Helio Gazer).

In that thread, @Northern_Brewer posits that since "patB is about 30x more effective than IRC7, then you may need to restrain it a little bit" when it comes to the flavors generated from thiols. And as a result, when using PatB strains, "mash hopping doesn’t really increase Thiol content that much and whirlpool hopping doesn’t decrease it as much either."
Slide 16 really stands out to me in this regard.

Just another something to factor in, I suppose.
 
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TBA

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At my brewery we’re releasing two beers next week that are mostly MI grown Saaz in the kettle, Southern Cross in the WP, and a blend of Nelson, Strata, Motueka in the DH at a ratio of 60% Nelson, 34% Strata, 6% Motueka. One is being fermented with Lunar Crush, the other with 34/70. It will be interesting to see the differences. They are drastically different beers as of right now that’s for
sure.
Please post an update!
 

couchsending

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Update:

These PatB thiolized yeasts are drastically different than Cosmic Punch. They produce beers with overpowering Thiol content, too much so in my opinion.

We were hoping for something much more integrated. We even upped the dry hop rate to try and reduce the Thiol impact with little success.

We took Lunar Cush to one more generation and upped the dry hop even more to 3#/bbl of Galaxy and NZ Cascade and even still get a really Thiol dominant beer. The Thiol character is interesting but it has a lot of negative sulfur characteristics that aren’t overly pleasant.

We don’t have the desire to continue to play around with these yeasts at the moment. Maybe on a smaller scale we’ll try a few things but we might wait until there’s a bit more R&D done by folks with the time and desire to do so before we try them again.
 

Northern_Brewer

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Obvious suggestion would be to blend a patB yeast with (lots?) of regular yeast, or dial down the amount of substrate you're feeding them?
 
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cactusgarrett

cactusgarrett

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They produce beers with overpowering Thiol content, too much so in my opinion.
This has been my experience as well. Though, I'm not entirely convince I dislike the beer, but I'm not writing it off completely (for myself) just yet - I pulled ALL the thiol levers in this first experience with it, so I'm going to try a lighter hand, maybe something on the opposite end of the spectrum, to see if I can produce something drastically different. Thanks for the data point!
 

jwa120

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I've noticed the thiols increase greatly with OG. If the thiols are too strong I would try something with a low OG or maybe sub some of the barley with an alternative such as wheat, oats, corn or rice.

I have read that the thiol precursors are higher in barley, but i don't recall the source.
 

Herky21

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I've noticed the thiols increase greatly with OG. If the thiols are too strong I would try something with a low OG or maybe sub some of the barley with an alternative such as wheat, oats, corn or rice.

I have read that the thiol precursors are higher in barley, but i don't recall the source.
Omega states that in their info on the yeast.
 

Herky21

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Update:

These PatB thiolized yeasts are drastically different than Cosmic Punch. They produce beers with overpowering Thiol content, too much so in my opinion.

We were hoping for something much more integrated. We even upped the dry hop rate to try and reduce the Thiol impact with little success.

We took Lunar Cush to one more generation and upped the dry hop even more to 3#/bbl of Galaxy and NZ Cascade and even still get a really Thiol dominant beer. The Thiol character is interesting but it has a lot of negative sulfur characteristics that aren’t overly pleasant.

We don’t have the desire to continue to play around with these yeasts at the moment. Maybe on a smaller scale we’ll try a few things but we might wait until there’s a bit more R&D done by folks with the time and desire to do so before we try them again.
What temp did you primary ferment at? Im assuming that like wine yeast, these beer yeasts will produce more thiols at the higher fermentation range. See https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S016816050600050X

I pitched 3 packs yesterday into a 5 gallon batch. A 5.5% lager, Cascade mash hops, late addition cashmere. Mostly pilsner with a touch of Munich malt. The yeast smelled terribly sulfur forward, which I thought was odd. Hopefully lagering has some positive impact on that. I've had similar issues with some of wyeasts ESB varieties but it cleared up with time.
 
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