Hop Heads, How Much is Too Much?

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NSMikeD

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While I do embrace subtle and balance, having brewed a kolsch that I believe is an example of subtle balance, I decided to go in the other direction and indulge my hop loving taste buds.


So I pushed a stone clone IBUS to 117 (as per BeerSmith) to see where my red line is- likely in protest of liking the kolsch so much.

OOPS.

Totally drowns out the flavor and aroma hops and the malt. I was so excited about this (and since I had the hops left over) I brewed a second batch based the flat sample that wasn't enough for me to appreciate just how bitter 117 IBUs is.

We'll see if over the next month (I brew 2.5 gallons) if I totally kill my palette with bitter overload.

I am experimenting with Amarillo and Mosiac in equal portions tonight using Marris Otter as my base (85%) with some 60l Crystal (15%). The IBUS come in at 90. I'm thinking of scaling that back to about 70 IBUS.

On the other hand, while I know I like beers in the 70 IBU range, I don't know if I like 90 and of course, there is only one way to find out.

70 v 90? If I stick with 90 am I in trouble?
 
I remember an interesting podcast a long time ago on hops. I'll try to find it.. But iirc, Our threshold 100 IBUS or somethng like that- ANd also from the same podcast said that our tastebuds can't distinguish the difference in under a 10 IBU gap. Like if you had a beer 80 and one 84 IBUs, you really couldn't distinguish the differenc.

Found the podcast I was thinking of... I'm sure there's been more understanding in the science of hops since this, but it was a fascintaing discussion IIRC.

March 20, 2008 - What Is an IBU . . . Really?
John Palmer, author of How to Brew, shares information from a conference that challenged his concept of what defines an International Bitterness Unit (IBU). Click to listen
 
Personally I find IBUs as not the end-all-be-all of hoppyiness. My 54 IBU cascade-hopped SMaSH comes out more aggressively bitter than Dogfish Head 120 minute IPA (120 IBU). Dogfish is triple the ABV and probably quadruple the malt flavor.

Hop type also plays a roll - I can't stand pine or resin, so 40 IBU of Simcoe or Chinook to me is borderline undrinkable - but change it to amarillo, cascade, or citra, and I am just getting started at 40 IBU.

One option would do a split batch and then vary the dry hop - none, a little, and a lot - and see what you like. Then you can do a 70 and a 90 - or a 40, 70, and 90 - and see what tickles your taste buds.
 
Personally I find IBUs as not the end-all-be-all of hoppyiness. My 54 IBU cascade-hopped SMaSH comes out more aggressively bitter than Dogfish Head 120 minute IPA (120 IBU). Dogfish is triple the ABV and probably quadruple the malt flavor.

Hop type also plays a roll - I can't stand pine or resin, so 40 IBU of Simcoe or Chinook to me is borderline undrinkable - but change it to amarillo, cascade, or citra, and I am just getting started at 40 IBU.

One option would do a split batch and then vary the dry hop - none, a little, and a lot - and see what you like. Then you can do a 70 and a 90 - or a 40, 70, and 90 - and see what tickles your taste buds.

Yeah, there's so many factors at play.

I was just given several pounds of hops from a new commercial hopfam... all locally grown and of different varieties... a lot of the local breweries are working with them.

Anyway I have many hops I decided to play around. I did 4-C IPA recently Columbus, Cascade, Centennial, Chinook, and decided to change up my "normal" hopping regimen that has served me well forever in favor of hop bursting like everyone's doing for things like NE-IPAs.

And I was disappointing in the final product. I'm not sure at this point if it was the bursting method, or it was the hops (the jury is still out on this grower for me anyway) but the beer, (which was my normal Eshatz's Bell's Two Hearted Ale Clone grainbill from here) just was "flat" the hops just didn't light up my palate like the traditional, FWH, 60, 30, 15, flameout I normally do. Even dryhopping and running some hops through my randall at serving hasn't elevated the brightness of the beer.

So there's really no pat answers to this. Experimentation is the key.

One very good way to test different hops and hopping routines out is by brewing SMaSH (single malt and single hop) beer. Keep a simple grainbill, and change up the hops. You can do it as small batch tests too.

:tank:
 
I don't care about ibu's, unless I am making a low ABV Pale ale.

I brew with a good healthy malt backbone, and can support a High IBU hi hop bursted ipa (dipa) and still have that balance with a clear malty backbone.

Go big and go big late. Use oil for your 60 minute IBU's, 1 ML = 10 IBU for 1.060 @ 5 gallon batch. very easy to control. (I prefer Apollo, 1 oz at FWH or .75 at 60 for 1.060 @ 5 gallon batch but the oil works great.

then do everything really really late, 2 minutes or less. 140 degree hop stand for 20 minutes, then drip hop the crap out of it at the 3-5 day mark. Try that.
 
Yes it is true that there is a theoretical cap to what we can taste. That being said something happens besides just IBU taste. I'll try to explain. My friend brews his own recipes for better or worse. He won't listen to logic and the best thing he could do is use an ibu calculator. Last beers he made, I estimated using a calculator at 250 ibus. I'm grateful for my friends terrible recipes because without them I wouldn't have the experience to be posting this. These beers he made, he made two batches, are the only beers I have ever dumped. They were undrinkable, literally and figuratively and however else one could put it. So even though there is an IBU threshold it seems the beers can get even worse for whatever reason. Determined to try to drink one again, which I failed at, I realize that it wasn't the bitterness and the bitterness was just at that threshold. It was the flavor. When you add hops and how much you add, is critical. Same amount of hops can make an amazing beer or one that is pouring down the sink. That's why I don't make my own recipes. Recipe clones for Pliny the Elder, congress street, and elevated ipa are out there from the Brewer. My motto is why reinvent the wheel. I understand some people are really into making recipes and their own recipes. My recommendation would be to find one of these great recipes and tweak it. A lot of the ipa's nowadays have their first hop addition at 30 minutes and it's the only addition. Minimal boil additions have become the norm. Don't be like my friend and be adding hops at 90, 60, 45, and 30 with high aa hops. If you add a bunch of hops early in the boil it's going to be bitter, my friend claims he likes it. If you really like that bitterness, elevated ipa is 100 ibus I think, use high alcohol level and a ton of dry hops to balance it, like elevated does. I think elevated has 6 oz dry-hopped.
 
A lot of the ipa's nowadays have their first hop addition at 30 minutes and it's the only addition. Minimal boil additions have become the norm.

Yep.... I have an EIPA bottle conditioning that only had a small 30 min addition, and all other hops 15 and less.
 
I have not tried to push the limit on IBUs... But I have come nowhere near the limit on hop flavor or aroma. But I am cheap so I am not going to put $25 of hops in a brew of $20 or grain......
 
Personally I find IBUs as not the end-all-be-all of hoppyiness. My 54 IBU cascade-hopped SMaSH comes out more aggressively bitter than Dogfish Head 120 minute IPA (120 IBU). Dogfish is triple the ABV and probably quadruple the malt flavor.

Hop type also plays a roll - I can't stand pine or resin, so 40 IBU of Simcoe or Chinook to me is borderline undrinkable - but change it to amarillo, cascade, or citra, and I am just getting started at 40 IBU.

One option would do a split batch and then vary the dry hop - none, a little, and a lot - and see what you like. Then you can do a 70 and a 90 - or a 40, 70, and 90 - and see what tickles your taste buds.
I think you're right that hop type DEFINITELY plays a role.
I'll drink a citrusy, piney NEIPA that I think is sweet and balanced, but my wife will try it and gag, saying it's far too bitter.
Then I'll order a resinous, grassy Northwest IPA that I think is face-scrunchingly bitter, but my wife will try it and be like, "Oh, I like that. It's mild."

I think it must be like cilantro; people must have different tolerances for compounds in hops.
 
In terms of recipe creation, this is the one tool I swear by that has never failed me yet. It's an SG/IBU- basically it shows you roughly what you're getting in terms of the gravity of the wort and the ibus in your recipe.

1699d1179349749-captain-hooked-bitters-red-hook-esb-clone-redhook_esb_ratio.jpg


I think the picture I just grabbed looks like it's from Redhook ESB.. and show if your SG is it looks like 10.52 and you want mostly balances, but slightly hoppy, you'd aim your beer around 28 IBUS.

When I'm building a recipe in beersmith I always have a tab on my computer open with one of these charts. And I start tweeking hop additions til I get what I want.
 
Too much is the point where you taste it and go 'that is too much'. Beer can be excellent or awful irrespective of IBU's. IBU's are just a unit of measurement for comparative purposes and are worthless against a broader description of the perceived bitterness in something we taste as others have mentioned, 80 IBU's can be malty in a barley wine. They can be more or less overwhelming depending on your tolerance and preference for various flavours. Unless you've got a lab then you just use a particular method to calculate your recipe and then adjust from there letting your tongue be the guide. What if I tell you to shoot for 50 IBU's for a recipe, do you use Tinseth exclusively? Do you attempt to calculate for the hop stand? Do you apply a fudge factor to calculate for the whirlpool? What temperature do you whirlpool at? You use FWH and do you account for the 'extra' time to boil? You can easily see that without a lab they are just a comparative tool and the tastebud is the final arbiter. You want to substitute a high AA bittering charge, do you care? Do you try and get roughly the same ratio of cohumulone? Of course if you've a lab I'll shut up, but the shaken and not stirred method using isooctane is 'less than great' in the words of one lab manager who cannot see the point outside of assessment of hop harvests.

Which is a fair point because checking the label and adjusting your recipe to bring it into spec is usually good enough for everything but a mass spectrometer.
 
Good points about hops & IBU's. I decided to focus on my original plan for tonights brew and that was to feature the Marris Otter and the combination of Amarillo and Mosaic to see how they play together.

I'm coming in about 63 IBU's with the bulk of the hops late

for my 2.5 gallon batch here is my hops schedule



.25oz Mosaic @ 60
.25oz Amarillo @ 60

.25oz Mosaic @ 15
.25oz Amarillo @ 15

.50oz Mosaic Whirlpool @ 185° for 20 min
.50oz Amarillo Whirlpool @ 185° for 20 min

.50oz Mosaic dry hop for 7 days (after fermentation)
.50oz Amarillo dry hop for 7 days (after fermentation)



my yeast is Safale 04. I usually use that for my English brews, but since I use 05 so often, I decided to use the 04 to complement the Marris Otter. This is sort of a schizophrenic brew that can't decide is it's an English IPA or an American IPA. Ash temp is holing at 151°.

The grain bill is 80% Morris Otter, 10.7%, Crystal 60l, 2.5% Cafafoam 2l and 6.7% Light DME (I was using up some specialty grains and the DME was to boost this to a 6.6% ABV brew).


PS The over hopped Stone Clone is growing on me. I love how a beer improves a few days after tapping even though I keg condition.
 
In terms of recipe creation, this is the one tool I swear by that has never failed me yet. It's an SG/IBU- basically it shows you roughly what you're getting in terms of the gravity of the wort and the ibus in your recipe.

1699d1179349749-captain-hooked-bitters-red-hook-esb-clone-redhook_esb_ratio.jpg


I think the picture I just grabbed looks like it's from Redhook ESB.. and show if your SG is it looks like 10.52 and you want mostly balances, but slightly hoppy, you'd aim your beer around 28 IBUS.

When I'm building a recipe in beersmith I always have a tab on my computer open with one of these charts. And I start tweeking hop additions til I get what I want.

Nice, thanks.
 
In terms of recipe creation, this is the one tool I swear by that has never failed me yet. It's an SG/IBU- basically it shows you roughly what you're getting in terms of the gravity of the wort and the ibus in your recipe.

1699d1179349749-captain-hooked-bitters-red-hook-esb-clone-redhook_esb_ratio.jpg


I think the picture I just grabbed looks like it's from Redhook ESB.. and show if your SG is it looks like 10.52 and you want mostly balances, but slightly hoppy, you'd aim your beer around 28 IBUS.

When I'm building a recipe in beersmith I always have a tab on my computer open with one of these charts. And I start tweeking hop additions til I get what I want.

I find FG is a better indication. Dryer beers have less sugar to offset the bitterness. That chart assumes a medium body (I think).
 
. Last beers he made, I estimated using a calculator at 250 ibus. I'm grateful for my friends terrible recipes because without them I wouldn't have the experience to be posting this. These beers he made, he made two batches, are the only beers I have ever dumped. They were undrinkable, literally and recipes.

How long after he brewed these hop beasts did you dump them?
Back in the 1800s a lot of British brewers hopped their IPAs to ridiculous levels and aged them for a year or more before releasing them. I attempted to recreate one last year and hopped it to nearly 200; it was undrinkable, but after nine months in the cellar it was very good.
 
FYI, day three after tapping and my over-hopped stone clone is really tasty. I have to rethink this whole IBU thing.
 
I think Mikkeller 1,000 IBU is the limit. If you feel like you need to have your teeth cleaned from the resin it is to much.
 
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