Homebrew Taste

[Gentlemans_Ale]

How do I get rid of that classic homebrew taste? Not off-flavors but that distinct homebrew undertone. I know it's not sanitation, high temps, water, or oxidizing. I'm doing AG, fermenting in carboys, usually at 66F, and not more than 3 weeks. Is it because I'm pitching at 80F sometimes? I'd like my stuff to taste clean like the craft beer I buy.

 

[PasbitinusBluinusRibbinus]

Under-attenuation?

 

[Gentlemans_Ale]

I do starters, and I tend to hit my numbers well.

 

[AndytheBeave]

Pitching at 80 Deg F is certainly a red flag. That and under-pitching and high fermentation temps

 

[Qhrumphf]

Well, pitching at 80F isn't ideal for anything, even a Saison. Can't think of anything that isn't better pitched at 70F or below, and then even if you ferment warmer allowing it to go up from there.

Beyond that, you'd have to be more descriptive about your process, and more descriptive about exactly what it is your tasting.

 

[AndytheBeave]

how long are you letting the beer condition? maybe the beer is green? how long are you keeping it in the fermentor(s) before bottling/kegging?

*edit* nevermind I see that you are keeping it 3 weeks in the fermentors.
Maybe it needs more time as well.

 

[d3track]

Have you tried other home brews? Outside of some under-attenuation with some extracts, I don't know what the distinct home brew flavor is...

 

[Quaffman]

What is the "homebrew" flavor anyhow? Not commercial tasting?

 

[Ski12568]

I had this conversation today. I figured it was water because from what I read, a lot of people do not care about water if it tastes good. I too am wondering the same as the OP

 

[pdxal]

It's probably at least a little bit of sanitation, high temps, water, and oxidizing along with underpitching yeast/poor yeast management, bad recipes, ingredients that aren't as fresh, or a million other things that add up to less than ideal (but perhaps still good) beers.
How about more detail about your process, perhaps your last recipe, and a better description of the off-taste?

 

[Singletrack]

It's probably at least a little bit of sanitation, high temps, water, and oxidizing along with underpitching yeast/poor yeast management, bad recipes, ingredients that aren't as fresh, or a million other things that add up to less than ideal (but perhaps still good) beers.
How about more detail about your process, perhaps your last recipe, and a better description of the off-taste?

I'm curious about this "little bit of sanitation" comment. Is the thought that things were sanitized well enough that the beer did not spoil/sour, but somehow was contaminated enough to affect flavor? I have been considering sanitization to be more of an "all-or-nothing" proposition. I do realize that sanitization is not sterilization, but could my occasional sanitization lapses result in unspoiled beer that just doesn't taste as good?

 

[sputnam]

How do I get rid of that classic homebrew taste? Not off-flavors but that distinct homebrew undertone. I know it's not sanitation, high temps, water, or oxidizing. I'm doing AG, fermenting in carboys, usually at 66F, and not more than 3 weeks. Is it because I'm pitching at 80F sometimes? I'd like my stuff to taste clean like the craft beer I buy.

one thing i have noticed when comparing my beer to say Sierra Nevada is that SN has a thinner mouthfeel and is CRYSTAL clear. I personally don't like that. My beer (IMHO) just has a better taste and mouthfeel that most of the commercial brews. I have 2 theories about what you are speaking of. 1). Most Commercial beer is filtered - You didn't mention you filtered so it could be the yeast you are tasting. Even if you cold crash you will still get a bunch of yeast in your beer. 2). Maybe it's your water. Most commercials strip the water of everything and then add exactly what they want to it. I just brewed 2 IPA's this past weekend, 1 with tap water and 1 with bottled spring water to see if I could tell any difference. I am like you in that there is a distinction in my beer but unlike you, I prefer mine.

 

[CastleHollow]

It's probably at least a little bit of sanitation, high temps, water, and oxidizing along with underpitching yeast/poor yeast management, bad recipes, ingredients that aren't as fresh, or a million other things ...

I'm curious about this "little bit of sanitation" comment. Is the thought that things were sanitized well enough that the beer did not spoil/sour, but somehow was contaminated enough to affect flavor? I have been considering sanitization to be more of an "all-or-nothing" proposition. I do realize that sanitization is not sterilization, but could my occasional sanitization lapses result in unspoiled beer that just doesn't taste as good?

I read pdxal's comment as: It's a little combination of "sanitation, high temps, water, oxidizing, underpitching, etc." Not "a little bit of sanitation."

As for your question, Singletrack, I think best practice is to follow thorough sanitation practices, particularly post boil. Why take the risk of introducing something that will create off-flavors, infection or a spoiled batch? Keep it an all or nothing deal.

 

[podz]

How do I get rid of that classic homebrew taste? Not off-flavors but that distinct homebrew undertone. I know it's not sanitation, high temps, water, or oxidizing. I'm doing AG, fermenting in carboys, usually at 66F, and not more than 3 weeks. Is it because I'm pitching at 80F sometimes? I'd like my stuff to taste clean like the craft beer I buy.

Pitching warm just to reduce lag time triggers production of fusel alcohols (what you call that distinct homebrew undertone). Doesn't matter that you drop temps for the ferment, the damage has already been done.

 

[stru]

It's probably at least a little bit of sanitation, high temps, water, and oxidizing along with underpitching yeast/poor yeast management, bad recipes, ingredients that aren't as fresh, or a million other things that add up to less than ideal (but perhaps still good) beers.
How about more detail about your process, perhaps your last recipe, and a better description of the off-taste?

I agree with this.

However, I do know the flavor he's talking about. Every beer my neighbor brews has it. If you put our beers side-by-side they look, smell and taste miles apart. I honestly think yeast management is the main factor. I treat my yeast very well... he chucks them in the carboy and crosses his fingers. Every brew he makes has a slight syrupy taste and more body than it should. I think that's what people mean when they say "homebrew taste."

 

[mrmop520]

Water was a huge factor for me in achieving the tastes I wanted in my beers. Knowing what the sulfate, calcium, and chloride numbers were for me was a huge improvement b/c my water is incredibly soft and lacking in these minerals. Also being able to calculate the mash PH. Although my sanitation, mash temps, strong boil, and fermentation temps were under control, it turned out that my water just needed some gypsum and calcium chloride to achieve the taste I wanted. (especially IPAs)

 

[The_Bishop]

I noticed a tremendous difference in my brews when I had fermentation temperature under control. Also, pitch a few degrees *under* your target ferment temperature, let it warm up to the correct temperature naturally. From what I understand, a large amount of off-flavors are produced in the beginning stages of fermentation, during the cell multiplication phase. If you're a few degrees under your target temp, most of the replication should be complete in cooler temperatures and you should end up with a cleaner tasting beer. Pitching the correct amount of cells is also important. If you're using liquid yeast, make a starter. Dry yeast? Rehydrate. It gives you the largest amount of viable cells from the packet as opposed to just sprinkling it on top of the wort.

The next big factor is water, if you're all-grain. I build from RO, and use acid (or base) as necessary to control mash PH. This has helped both mashing efficiency *and* the flavor of the beer. Keeping PH in check and having the water salts correct has resulted in much 'cleaner' flavor beers. Water can be a contributing factor in extract, as well - If your flavor (or kettle) salts aren't right for whatever brew you're making, it can have an effect. Hops might be muted in an PA/IPA, or the maltiness of an Octoberfest might be muddled. For a baseline, in extract brewing, use RO water. See if that changes the flavor and gives you the 'clean' profile you're looking for.

Another big jump is cold crashing and fining. I have taken to crashing all my brews down to 0C/32F for 24 hours, then fining with gelatin, then giving them another 48 hours. The beer is very, very clear when I rack to the bottling bucket or keg. It's also crisper tasting than the same brew done without cold crashing.

Process control is important. You need to take reasonable precautions against introducing oxygen into your beer post-ferment. Be careful with racking; no spashing. I don't do secondary fermenters unless I'm aging a beer or adding some sort of fruit. Any time you rack from one fermenter to another you are introducing oxygen, so minimize this as much as possible.

Time. You need to let your beer finish! Leave it in the fermenter until the yeast is done cleaning up after itself. Depending on the OG of the beer, I leave mine in the fermenter for anywhere from 10 to 14 days, sometimes longer if I don't see it dropping mostly clear on it's own. When the initial heay fermentation is over, I'll usually bump up the temperature 2-3 degrees to help the yeast finish (for ales, I don't really do lagers).

 

[gometz]

I'm going to join on the water crowd. Most people will just use their tap water without thinking about what minerals it has and the effects they have on flavor. I have been brewing with RO water for a while now (tap water is horrible, don't even drink it), and I'm finally able to drink one of my beers and say "this could use a little more X mineral".

If you are using tap water, try using RO or distilled with a little bit of minerals added once to see if that helps. The worst thing I have done was accidentally add 5 times (!!!) the NaCl I was supposed to, made a very weird beer.

 

[Gentlemans_Ale]

Well, pitching at 80F isn't ideal for anything, even a Saison. Can't think of anything that isn't better pitched at 70F or below, and then even if you ferment warmer allowing it to go up from there.

Beyond that, you'd have to be more descriptive about your process, and more descriptive about exactly what it is your tasting.

I soak everything in star-san, then filter my water with a 10-stage filter - but still wonder if there could be chlorine or chloramine. I added pH stabilizer to my last brew and will see if this adds a taste. I mash at 152 and usually always get above 75% efficiency. I boil my wort and then cool it down to 80F over 45 minutes due to hot texas tap water temps with an immersion chiller. I pitch a starter. I primary at 68 for 1 week, then secondary at 70 for 2 weeks in fermentation chamber. I rack on a pillow of CO2 each time. Cold crash, then rack to keg.

 

[Gentlemans_Ale]

Thanks everyone, I am leaning more towards the water or yeast since I don't filter my beer.

 

[gfinockio]

I'm doubting the water is the issue unless you are using well water - likely it's a yeast thing. I find the same thing - under-attenuation. That seems to be an issue with most of my beers lately.

 

[Gentlemans_Ale]

Would under attenuation be present if my FGs are actually going a bit lower than calculated?

 

[JonGrafto]

I tend to pitch and ferment lower (depending on the yeast) but 68-70° sounds a little high especially coming down from 80° when you first pitch. Try to go a bit lower on fermenting temps like low to mid-60's and use Mr. Malty or one of the other yeast calculators out there to make sure you are inviting the proper amount of yeast to the party.

 

[TheCADJockey]

Interested in this question as well. I'm still learning and have a modest setup. All of my beers (aside from one batch of gushers) have turned out quite tasty from extract/partial mash and one all grain (the gusher). Each tasted really great, outsiders enjoyed them, but every single one had "The Taste". It's not even bad, honestly by the second or third beer it can be hard to notice. So I'm curious myself. Assume maybe it is the tap water? Although if this is the case, it is really not that big of an issue for me to start messing with changing the water.

 

[Doctor_M]

I soak everything in star-san, then filter my water with a 10-stage filter - but still wonder if there could be chlorine or chloramine. I added pH stabilizer to my last brew and will see if this adds a taste. I mash at 152 and usually always get above 75% efficiency. I boil my wort and then cool it down to 80F over 45 minutes due to hot texas tap water temps with an immersion chiller. I pitch a starter. I primary at 68 for 1 week, then secondary at 70 for 2 weeks in fermentation chamber. I rack on a pillow of CO2 each time. Cold crash, then rack to keg.

Chlorine or chloramine may still be a factor, added into the fact that with a 10 stage filter you are stripping minerals... it has also been pretty well established that 5.2 stabilzer works best in the trash can. Something else to look into is what yeast strain you are using since not all yeast does best at 68. 80 degree pitch temp may also be a tad high depending on strain. Also how are you taking readings of your fermentation temperature?

 

[Likefully]

Process control is important. You need to take reasonable precautions against introducing oxygen into your beer post-ferment. Be careful with racking; no spashing. I don't do secondary fermenters unless I'm aging a beer or adding some sort of fruit. Any time you rack from one fermenter to another you are introducing oxygen, so minimize this as much as possible.

This is important, for sure. But how many people that do pitch into a secondary and then again into a bottling bucket have experienced oxidation?

Sure there is a risk with each racking event, but how significant is it?

 

[Doctor_M]

This is important, for sure. But how many people that do pitch into a secondary and then again into a bottling bucket have experienced oxidation?

Sure there is a risk with each racking event, but how significant is it?

Oxidation is never good a good thing and yes it is a valid concern especially with certain beer styles. With IPA's/IIPA'S it's very significant.

 

[Gentlemans_Ale]

Chlorine or chloramine may still be a factor, added into the fact that with a 10 stage filter you are stripping minerals... it has also been pretty well established that 5.2 stabilzer works best in the trash can. Something else to look into is what yeast strain you are using since not all yeast does best at 68. 80 degree pitch temp may also be a tad high depending on strain. Also how are you taking readings of your fermentation temperature?

I use a Johnson Control temp controller with a thermowell

 

[Gentlemans_Ale]

Sorry if this question deserves a whole new feed, but for the water crowd, do you guys recommend just taking water from the tap and boiling it or using camp den tabs to remove chlorine - instead of filtering since it may strip away minerals? I've attached a water report to see what you guys think.

 

[JonGrafto]

Sorry if this question deserves a whole new feed, but for the water crowd, do you guys recommend just taking water from the tap and boiling it or using camp den tabs to remove chlorine - instead of filtering since it may strip away minerals? I've attached a water report to see what you guys think.

If you want to play with your water profile, go to this site. It is a good resource to put a recipe in and figure out what you want to add for your water. http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

It looks like you are a little low on a lot of items, so adding in some calcium chloride and some Epsom salt may work depending on recipe. Play around with it...

 

[william_shakes_beer]

I have been teaching my teenager the lifetime habits of responsible consumption of alcohol. As a result of the rules (no driving after even 1 beer, don't take beer out of the house, no underage friends over to drink) he has been drinking primarailly my home brew. He went to his girlfriend's house the other day, came home after having his first BMC and said " i didn't realize how flavorful your brew was until I drank the other stuff. Perhaps the "home brew" taste the OP is referring to is flavor?

 

[wingedcoyote]

If you have temperature control for fermentation, you don't need to be pitching at 80 -- just chill as far as your groundwater will take you and then stick it in the chamber, and wait to pitch until you're down to pitching temp. Delaying a few hours before pitching won't hurt, and even if it's not ideal it's still better than pitching too high IMO. I do this every batch and it works great.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Sorry if this question deserves a whole new feed, but for the water crowd, do you guys recommend just taking water from the tap and boiling it or using camp den tabs to remove chlorine - instead of filtering since it may strip away minerals? I've attached a water report to see what you guys think.

Campden tablets all the way. Your water is fairly similar to mine. A little alkaline for very pale beers but quite versatile. So no filtering or any of that jazz for me. 1 tablet per 20 gal water (or 1/2 tab per 10 gal water for each 5 gal batch). It's faster, more reliable, and cheaper than filtering or buying water. Just have to use a few cents worth of lactic acid in pale beers.

If you've got chloramine or chlorine in your brewing water that'll explain your house off flavor right there.

 

[The_Bishop]

This is important, for sure. But how many people that do pitch into a secondary and then again into a bottling bucket have experienced oxidation?

Sure there is a risk with each racking event, but how significant is it?

My outlook is: If it's not necessary and presents *any* risk, then do away with it. Keep things as simple as possible.

 

[Xpertskir]

How do I get rid of that classic homebrew taste? Not off-flavors but that distinct homebrew undertone. I know it's not sanitation, high temps, water, or oxidizing. I'm doing AG, fermenting in carboys, usually at 66F, and not more than 3 weeks. Is it because I'm pitching at 80F sometimes? I'd like my stuff to taste clean like the craft beer I buy.

There is no such thing as homebrew taste..just bad brewer taste, and it's definitely not a problem that is limited to homebrewers.


Don't pitch at 80....ever. And also don't assume that it's not a problem with ABC until you've gained enough experience to know that.

 

[j1n]

Can we please stop calling off flavors in beer "homebrew taste". If your beer has an off flavor then call it an off flavor and describe what it is. Nobody knows what your talking about other than you have an off flavor when you say "classic homebrew taste". My beers taste clean and don't have off flavors. i think its an insult to all homebrewers to call off flavors "homebrew taste".

/rant

 

[AndytheBeave]

I am sticking with temperature on this one. If you're pitching at 80 Deg F, I think that you'll will have off flavours with or without adjusting water chemistry.

 

[Gentlemans_Ale]

Can we please stop calling off flavors in beer "homebrew taste". If your beer has an off flavor then call it an off flavor and describe what it is. Nobody knows what your talking about other than you have an off flavor when you say "classic homebrew taste". My beers taste clean and don't have off flavors. i think its an insult to all homebrewers to call off flavors "homebrew taste".

/rant

:smack:

 

[Foosier]

Gentleman, you really need to look at your fermentation temp management. Along with starters and proper pitching, ferm temp makes a huge difference in ensuring you get a good clean tasting beer. High ferm temps are the biggest cause of off flavors home brewing will create (my opinion, but this is usually cause #1 when all else is done right). Make sure you get your wort to the low 60's before you pitch your yeast and your beer will reward you.

 

[brew_ny]

for me the homebrew taste is a good thing