Home roasting expert needed!

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Laughing_Gnome_Invisible

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For months now I have been working towards my goal of brewing a bitter that uses only MO, Goldings and fuggles. Most of my attempts at home roasting have added the complexity I want, but I have always lacked a good caramel taste.

I finally have acheived EXACTLY the beer I am looking for, but to get it, I had to add 3% of Special B to my grist. I have tried all kinds of methods to make a good dark crystal, so I now find myself stuck on how to achieve the home roast version of special B. For stupid reasons that are particular to my own brand of obsession I need to do this with Maris Otter.

So, Special B or a 180L crystal malt with a similar profile.....How the fook can I get that from roasting MO? Please? I have no hair of my own to pull out, and my dog is getting really pissed of at me for pulling out his. :(
 
Not that I have any experience wtih it, but I'd be tempted to treat the MO as if you were making a nice bowl of oatmeal to eat - not the instant kind.

I'd mill the grain, add water and start cooking it on the stove.

Actually, maybe more like making risotto.

Take your milled MO and put it in the pan with just a little water and start cooking - and stirring - lots of stirring. As is cooks and starts to dry, add a little more water and lots more stirring - you're trying to use as little water as possible and not have it scorch, hence the lots of stirring. The less water you can add, that faster it will caramelize, but the more carefull you'll have to be. Keep slowly adding the water and stirring until you've got a nice porridge. It will be a bit tricky to get it right. When you're happy with your "barlotto" add it to the mash.

You might want to try and separate the husks from the endosperm, at least some of it. This will help with the caramelization and minimize any potential tannins releasing from the husks while cooking.

Hmmmm, I just may have to try this for my next crazy beer. I could make a "barlotto" beer with sauteed hops. I'll have to see how the sauteed hop beer turns out first.
 
What you want to do is crystallize that MO.

This is very doable. I have 2 pounds in my oven as we speak.

You first need to rehydrate the grain by soaking it for 24 hours in chlorine free water.

Then you basically will be mashing it in the husk. First drain, and then put the wet grain in the oven at ~160-165 for 3 hours in a casserole pan that keeps the grain bed depth at around 2 inches. This will convert the starch to sugar. EDIT: This is the most important step by far. If you do not properly convert the starch you will not have sugar to caramelize. For that reason you want to make sure the grain bed is actually between 155-165 degrees. Any warmer and the enzymes will get denatured and not convert the starch.
Then you will need to brown and caramelize this crystal malt. This is a pretty long process to get to 180l but it is well worth it. It will be the best Special B you ever had. First split the grain into 2 or more pans so that the grain depth is ~ 1 inch. Turn up the oven to 220. Stir the grain every half hour until the grain gets dry and crisp and starts to darken. Maybe 2 hours. (At this point you will have 15-20l crystal malt) To take this to 180l I would spritz with water now and moisten so that the grain will continue to caramelize. Raise the temp to 300. Over the course of an hour to 2 hours this grain will go through the progressing levels of lovibond darkness. Keep close track. When you hit around 80l raise the temp to 350 and watch carefully, stirring every 15 minutes or so until you get to a point that is approaching, but less roasted than Special B. It will continue to darken some out of the oven and it is always darker than you think. Always.

Total roast time will probably be in the 4-5 hour range.
 
It is funny that you have this goal.

My goal since a couple months ago and ongoing is to become an expert at producing authentic classic UK styles using authentic ingredients and serving techniques. I have been roasting my own grains also to this end.

When you perfect the crystalizing process your beer will make a leap in quality. It is so much better tasting than store bought crystal. It is hard to describe the difference. It just tastes more real.

I just floated an ESB last week that is honestly one of my favorite beers of all time and I have another ESB in the fermenter that is made with only my home roasted and crystal grains.

Oh yeah, you need to let the grain sit for at least a few days before use to let some of the harsher aromatics to dissipate.
 
here's a link to a thread where I explain my homemade grain recipes:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/making-homemade-specialty-malts-caramels-chocolates-toasted-etc-133094/

My process does not take as long as Dontman's but seems to work out pretty good. Ditto's on the "letting the roast grain chill a week or two before brew"

during roasting take a couple of grain and slip 'em open with a fingernail and look at the insides, this will give you an idea of color better than the outside. You could alway take about 1/2 once and steep the grain in a clear glass cup of hot water to get an idea of color too...
 
The popcorn popper idea is interesting. I actually started a thread this past week asking for anyone's experience using the convection feature of their oven. I have that but have never found a use for it. Randy Mosher suggested that it might be a good way to reduce roasting times and I was wondering if anyone had an idea of how much time savings.

Question: when you are basically steeping your malt prior to caramelizing have you tasted the liquor to see if you are losing much sugar?
 
BTW my two pounds is through the "mashing step" and is into the caramelizing/roasting stage. It smells so good in my house right now. And I have all of the windows open with a nice breeze and it stills smells like sweet wort in the air.
 
Question: when you are basically steeping your malt prior to caramelizing have you tasted the liquor to see if you are losing much sugar?

I've never tested the specific gravity of the "runnings" after I drain. I guess I should. The water is slighty sweet though... so I imagine I'm loosing some sugar.

I've alway meant to try to soak my grains then plop them in the oven and let the oven heat convert the grains... you may loose less sugar? I dunno....

Sounds like a good experiment!
 
Thanks guys! These methods are WAY more complicated than the methods I have tried so far......And I am absolutely fine with that! ;)

I think I need to set aside some time and try all these methods side by side and use the results in some mini brews.

I'm honestly not sure why I have to try and be so self-sufficient, it's just the way it is for me. For some unknown reason I just feel a need to know that I can brew exactly the beer I want with the absolute minimum of LHBS bought ingredients. To this end I am using whatever I can from the supermarket (Demerara, quick oats, cane sugar for carbing) you get the idea..... I just want to know that if I have a few sacks of MO, some washed yeast, some homegrown hops and a way to boil it all.......I guess we all have our own little odd perversities. ;)

Thanks again to all. This is exactly the info I was hoping for. :)
 
Just thinking out loud here, and I applaud your dedication to perfecting this recipe and minimizing the list of LHBS ingredients.

Have you thought about using process to achieve the caramel character in your bitter vs. using crystal malt? I'm talking about kettle caramelization, a technique used by traditional Scottish brewers - boiling down the first runnings to reduce the volume by half and concentrating the caramelly flavors.

MO as a base malt, a touch of roasted barley for color adjustment and kettle caramelization.

I may have to try doing that with a bitter; I've been doing it for my Scottish ales for some time now.
 
Just thinking out loud here, and I applaud your dedication to perfecting this recipe and minimizing the list of LHBS ingredients.

Have you thought about using process to achieve the caramel character in your bitter vs. using crystal malt? I'm talking about kettle caramelization, a technique used by traditional Scottish brewers - boiling down the first runnings to reduce the volume by half and concentrating the caramelly flavors.

MO as a base malt, a touch of roasted barley for color adjustment and kettle caramelization.

I may have to try doing that with a bitter; I've been doing it for my Scottish ales for some time now.


Hmmm I've tried 90 minute boils to little effect. I think that maybe the dryer roasts I have tried may have counteracted that effect. I think though, that I would rather keep within 90 mins and try to have more adjustment in the grist. I'm thinking that should give me better control, especially as i move into winter, when the boil gets more difficult for me.
 
About a year ago I went on a serious Belgian kick. Now I am at the point where I am kind of sick of that familiar Belgian yeast character.

I never get sick of UK beers and actually find my appreciation of them growing with every batch that I do. I think the character and artistry of the brewer comes through better in them than in other styles. By contrast with ther Belgians it is all about the yeast. We just go along for the ride.

Fly, I haven't done a Scottish ale yet but it is definitely in my queue and the kettle caramelization technique is right up my alley. Any other steps or tips to this unmentioned in your post?

I plan to dust off my mini kegs so that I can do some close to authentic cask ales.

Now I need to find the cash for a nitrogen/stout setup.
 
Ah you misunderstood me!

You can't achieve caramelization with a longer boil - increased Maillard reactions, yes, but not true caramelization.

If you boil down the first runnings - which are probably close to 1.090 - like Scottish brewers do, you'll get loads of caramel. For an average sized grist, you're talking mebbe 2-3 gallons? Trust me - I do it all the time when I brew my Scottish ales. The grist for my Scottish ales is MO and just a little roasted barley - 'tis all! :D
 
Though I've heard about it before, I'm more interested now in this kettle caramelization technique as well. I'm assuming you need to account for this loss somewhere in your mash/sparge. Or do you mash/sparge as normal, just boiling down the first runnings a bit first?
 
Ah you misunderstood me!

You can't achieve caramelization with a longer boil - increased Maillard reactions, yes, but not true caramelization.

If you boil down the first runnings - which are probably close to 1.090 - like Scottish brewers do, you'll get loads of caramel. For an average sized grist, you're talking mebbe 2-3 gallons? Trust me - I do it all the time when I brew my Scottish ales. The grist for my Scottish ales is MO and just a little roasted barley - 'tis all! :D

Yup! I misunderstood you! :( Even so, I am at a point right now where I have a brew (Drinking it right now) that is as close to perfection that I can ever expect. This means I am ONE home roasted grain away from my house brew! :D

I will be happy to try your method further down the line when I have more experience, but for now, I have come too close to my goal....Just one stupid small step away! I'm afraid that if I changed things too much right now I may end up at square one again. :(
 
Though I've heard about it before, I'm more interested now in this kettle caramelization technique as well. I'm assuming you need to account for this loss somewhere in your mash/sparge. Or do you mash/sparge as normal, just boiling down the first runnings a bit first?

Yeah - what I do is reduce the volume of the first runnings by boiling, and compensate for this reduction by slightly increasing the total sparge volume.

I aim for 8 gallons preboil on my system, assuming 80% efficiency so my volumes might look something like this for, say, a 10 lb grain bill.

First runnings from the tun might be 2.5 - 3 gallons. Run this off into a separate pot and begin boiling until this volume is reduced by half. If you are getting 100% extract efficiency, those first runnings will probably be in the neighborhood of 1.080 -1.090 (use Kai's spreadsheet!).

Two batch sparges to get my target volume.
 
I finished up my crystal malt roasting. I did 12 oz each of three different levels. ~80, ~120, ~150

I took a bunch of pictures but I couldn't really see enough color detail and difference between the pictures to make it worthwhile posting the photos.

I did do the convection oven. It reduced the drying time post malting but it also made 20l a pipedream. By the time the malt felt dry and crystal-ly enough it was already at ~60l.

LGI, The dark crystals came out great! Very tasty and the darkest is a dead ringer for my commercial Special B that I used as a reference, so I say go for it and see if the you think the effort is worth it.

For me the next time I do this it will be with 10 lbs of grain. Same effort for 5 times the product. Then it will be worth it for sure.
 
What you want to do is crystallize that MO.

This is very doable. I have 2 pounds in my oven as we speak.

You first need to rehydrate the grain by soaking it for 24 hours in chlorine free water.

Then you basically will be mashing it in the husk. First drain, and then put the wet grain in the oven at ~160-165 for 3 hours in a casserole pan that keeps the grain bed depth at around 2 inches. This will convert the starch to sugar. EDIT: This is the most important step by far. If you do not properly convert the starch you will not have sugar to caramelize. For that reason you want to make sure the grain bed is actually between 155-165 degrees. Any warmer and the enzymes will get denatured and not convert the starch.
Then you will need to brown and caramelize this crystal malt. This is a pretty long process to get to 180l but it is well worth it. It will be the best Special B you ever had. First split the grain into 2 or more pans so that the grain depth is ~ 1 inch. Turn up the oven to 220. Stir the grain every half hour until the grain gets dry and crisp and starts to darken. Maybe 2 hours. (At this point you will have 15-20l crystal malt) To take this to 180l I would spritz with water now and moisten so that the grain will continue to caramelize. Raise the temp to 300. Over the course of an hour to 2 hours this grain will go through the progressing levels of lovibond darkness. Keep close track. When you hit around 80l raise the temp to 350 and watch carefully, stirring every 15 minutes or so until you get to a point that is approaching, but less roasted than Special B. It will continue to darken some out of the oven and it is always darker than you think. Always.

Total roast time will probably be in the 4-5 hour range.

I've started soaking the grain to do this tomorrow. I was wondering though, for the stage in bold would it be best to use a casserole dish with a lid? I was thinking it may keep a more even temp throughout the grain bed and also keep the moisture in the grain while it is "steeping"
 
I've started soaking the grain to do this tomorrow. I was wondering though, for the stage in bold would it be best to use a casserole dish with a lid? I was thinking it may keep a more even temp throughout the grain bed and also keep the moisture in the grain while it is "steeping"

Actually, I do put a piece of aluminum foil around the top so that is pretty much the same thing. What I was finding is that the moisture felt like it was evaporating too much to keep the grain adequately wet for conversion. So yes, a lid should do fine. The only issue here is that it will add some time to the "kilning" afterwards to dry out the grain. You'll see what I mean. But Mosher says that this wet kilning adds more caramel flavor so it is still in line with what you and I are trying to achieve.

Do you have a probe thermometer that you can place directly in the grain bed? I reasoned that since we are doing an in husk mash that we would want the grain bed to be at mash temps. Once I hit mash temp I then started timing for 90 minutes. It took about 75 minutes to get to mash temp in the grain bed.

When you are finishing up it is very helpful to have reference samples, i.e. commercial grains, to determine what level of crystallization your grains are at.
 
I don't have a thermometer that is really suitable for this, so I was thinking of trying a dummy run with flour or something in the place of the grain with a lab thermometer in it until I can get the setting right.
 
You at least want to keep pretty close tabs on the oven temp. My oven gets pretty inaccurate at such low temps. I found that an oven temp of 185 or so was good for the first hour and I reduced it to 170 to maintain grain bed temp.
 
I did use the convection oven feature, for the first time ever, but the minimum temp I could set it at was 300 degrees so I could only use it for the last hour.

Can a microwave convection work without the microwave part? Probably don't want to be irradiating this grain.
 
I did use the convection oven feature, for the first time ever, but the minimum temp I could set it at was 300 degrees so I could only use it for the last hour.

Can a microwave convection work without the microwave part? Probably don't want to be irradiating this grain.

I have no clue if my microwave uses the microwaves during convecting mode or not. Screw it. I'll use the gas oven.
 
Now that I have this process pretty well dialed in, the next time I do it I will not mess around. I will be doing at least 8 pounds.

I was expecting the grain to taste really sweet once done the "mashing" process. It was not. But as it was baking post mash it started smelling sweeter and sweeter. At its height it smelled exactly like I was doing a full batch boil in the house. Delicious. Except to the wife. She worked in a food lab for 10 years out in Columbus Ohio and whenever I brew in the house she gets flashbacks to the agar production days.
 
I'm starting ambitiously with 2 pounds. I just feel somehow good enough about this to splash out a bit. :D It all sounds right, somehow.
 
2 pounds is a good amount to do, not too much, not too little. Except when you are done and realize that you only have 2 lbs for all that work. ;)
 
I'm doing the steeping stage right now. Trying to calibrate the oven temp with water in the dish gave me a ball park figure for the real process....I had to set the oven at 220 to get a grain bed temp of 165!

Information like that sure tells me where my process has been going wrong in the past. I mean, I knew that you can't trust your oven settings, but Jebus! Them thar settings are WAY off.
 
Just finished the 3 hour wet bake. The grains are already looking far superior in colour to the steeping techniques I had tried before!!!

I'm getting more than a little excited about the final outcome! :D
 
Cool thing. Wait til it starts drying out during the next phase and you get that sweet wort smell. Then you'll know you've arrived. You can also use that smell to gauge where you are in the caramelization process.

I just got done a batch of Ordinary Bitter using only MO and my own grains and washed yeast. I feel like a frickin Pennsylvania Dutchman. :D This is officially the smallest beer I have ever done. (1.040 OG, 1.011 FG)
 
I'll be watchin'. :) I really wanna try making my Belgian Pale Ale with 100% home roasted grain. It's already one of my best beers, scores consistently in the 40s at comps, and disappears at parties. I can only imagine how good it would get with home roasted grain.
 
I just got done a batch of Ordinary Bitter using only MO and my own grains and washed yeast. I feel like a frickin Pennsylvania Dutchman. :D This is officially the smallest beer I have ever done. (1.040 OG, 1.011 FG)

This is what tells me that we are on the same wavelength. :D

I just bottled a second, lighter version of my previous brew with special B. It is another winner! It's lighter in body, and more of a summer brew, but it is easy to tell that the two are related. I just KNOW that this roasting process will work for me, and from that I will get a whole family of of recipes! :)

I ain't Amish, but I think I may just grow the beard when I finally get this thing sussed! :D
 
I'll be watchin'. :) I really wanna try making my Belgian Pale Ale with 100% home roasted grain. It's already one of my best beers, scores consistently in the 40s at comps, and disappears at parties. I can only imagine how good it would get with home roasted grain.

I dunno if your beer will be better for home roasting your grains....All I can say is that it FEELS better! :)
 
I've been using toasted malt for awhile now in my house ale and IPA, I love it. Adds a complexity of flavor that is more than I get from Victory or Biscuit.

Yup! I do my own biscuit these days. I don't see any reason to buy from a supplier now that i know I can create exactly what I want now from what I have already! :mug:
 
Just as a reference how long do you toast the grain for your biscuit? I usually do a couple pounds on a cookie sheet at 300*F for 60 minutes.

60 minutes at 350F turning rgularly......But I find that after today I gotta find out the real temp. My oven is a total liar! :(
 
60 minutes at 350F turning rgularly......But I find that after today I gotta find out the real temp. My oven is a total liar! :(

Well if yours is lying then I have to assume mine is too. I'll take a true temp next time I roast (probably tomorrow). I'm hoping it's off so I can also cut down on the time it takes to cook my zza's :ban:
 
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