Hochkurz Mash (Partial Decoction) and Mash Efficiency

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BugAC

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I've been doing the hochkurz mash with most of my lagers, in particular the hochkurz decoction mash. (https://beerandbrewing.com/short-and-high-the-hochkurz-mash/) I've found that my efficiency jumps up significantly compared to the standard infusion mash. My standard infusion mash efficiency is typically around 80-84%. When i perform a hochkurz decoction, my mash efficiency jumps up to 86-89%. Anyone else get similar results?
 
Most maltsters stop the germination when the acuspire is 3/4 to 7/8 the length of the corn. So that small end has starch that is released in the decoction boil. I always get 3-4 points more.
 
I've been doing the hochkurz mash with most of my lagers, in particular the hochkurz decoction mash. (https://beerandbrewing.com/short-and-high-the-hochkurz-mash/) I've found that my efficiency jumps up significantly compared to the standard infusion mash. My standard infusion mash efficiency is typically around 80-84%. When i perform a hochkurz decoction, my mash efficiency jumps up to 86-89%. Anyone else get similar results?
What other benefit do you get from doing the decoction?

I played around with a while ago but didnt think it was worth it. I have a robo now, so if i did one, id be less worried abut hitting exact temps when i returned the decoction to the robo, as its got elements to help with hitting temps.

I do a lot of rice lagers, to the point i brew pretty much the same one, so if i tried one with my next one id be more likely to notice any difference regards to body etc.
 
What other benefit do you get from doing the decoction?

I played around with a while ago but didnt think it was worth it. I have a robo now, so if i did one, id be less worried abut hitting exact temps when i returned the decoction to the robo, as its got elements to help with hitting temps.

I do a lot of rice lagers, to the point i brew pretty much the same one, so if i tried one with my next one id be more likely to notice any difference regards to body etc.
I’m in the same boat, Robobrew so not really worried about hitting the next mash steps.

I’ve been curious about trying decoction again, and I got a propane burner and stainless kettle for Christmas. I’ll likely give it a try in the early spring.
 
I’m in the same boat, Robobrew so not really worried about hitting the next mash steps.

I’ve been curious about trying decoction again, and I got a propane burner and stainless kettle for Christmas. I’ll likely give it a try in the early spring.
I tried when i was mashing in a cooler, and it was a PITA, it was a bit of a disaster.

I can see a lot less hassle with the robo.

Ill try it
 
I've been doing the hochkurz mash with most of my lagers, in particular the hochkurz decoction mash. (https://beerandbrewing.com/short-and-high-the-hochkurz-mash/) I've found that my efficiency jumps up significantly compared to the standard infusion mash. My standard infusion mash efficiency is typically around 80-84%. When i perform a hochkurz decoction, my mash efficiency jumps up to 86-89%. Anyone else get similar results?
I'm interested to know the temps & times you are using for low and high--and how long it takes you to get from low to high. I use hochkurz often (changing temps with direct heat+recirc, not with decoction) but don't think I've got a good handle on these factors. Along with increased efficiency, it's pretty easy to get a thin beer if I wait for full conversion before going to the high temp. And of course there's a dependency on the malt, but the pilsner malts I use respond to hochkurz.
 
I'm interested to know the temps & times you are using for low and high--and how long it takes you to get from low to high. I use hochkurz often (changing temps with direct heat+recirc, not with decoction) but don't think I've got a good handle on these factors. Along with increased efficiency, it's pretty easy to get a thin beer if I wait for full conversion before going to the high temp. And of course there's a dependency on the malt, but the pilsner malts I use respond to hochkurz.
I have two Hochkurz mash profiles set up in Beersmith. One is 122°F to 155°F and the other is 144°F to 160°F. The latter is the standard you will find in most articles and discussions on the topic. I must have had something specific in mind when I created the first profile but for the life of me now I cannot remember why or what it was for. My schedule if around 45 minutes for each step. I use either my Anvil Foundry 6.5 or SS Brewtech SVBS and simply ramp up the temp via the control panel.

In all truth however except for noticing better mash efficiency I don't think I could tell the difference between my Hochkurz mashed beers from a single infusion. I have only tried a real decoction twice and the results did not warrant the effort imho.
 
My Wit beer is 25% wheat malt, 25% flaked wheat, and 50% pale malt so I mash in at 122* for 20 min then add boiling liquor to, get to 152*. This way I don't denature any foam positive proteins.
 
I'm interested to know the temps & times you are using for low and high--and how long it takes you to get from low to high. I use hochkurz often (changing temps with direct heat+recirc, not with decoction) but don't think I've got a good handle on these factors. Along with increased efficiency, it's pretty easy to get a thin beer if I wait for full conversion before going to the high temp. And of course there's a dependency on the malt, but the pilsner malts I use respond to hochkurz.
I shoot for 144-146 on the low, and 160 on the high end. 40 minutes each step.
 
What other benefit do you get from doing the decoction?

I played around with a while ago but didnt think it was worth it. I have a robo now, so if i did one, id be less worried abut hitting exact temps when i returned the decoction to the robo, as its got elements to help with hitting temps.

I do a lot of rice lagers, to the point i brew pretty much the same one, so if i tried one with my next one id be more likely to notice any difference regards to body etc.
I can't really give you a compare/contract. I haven't done many (maybe 1 or 2) simple infusion mash lagers. Most if not all are hochkurz decoction/step mashes. I like the process and maybe i'm getting a little more richness from the maillard reaction during the decoction. I've read plenty of articles about the benefits of decoction, but also have read many anecdotal posts about people not being able to really tell a difference. I don't mind hochkurz decoctions. Give me a feel of brewing like the germans.
 
Thanks to kevin58 and BugAC for hochkurz info. I started with temps using info from one of Kai's articles on decoction with time from the diagrams. I think my attempts spent too much time in the 145-149*F range, maybe up to an hour the first time. Lately I've been doing a temperature step mash at 150 & 158 *F and fiddling with the balance of times at each. Based on what you have been using, it sounds like I could expand the temp range and use 145*F for 35min followed by heating (10min) to 160*F for 40min should give me medium body and good efficiency.
 
My standard infusion mash efficiency is typically around 80-84%. When i perform a hochkurz decoction, my mash efficiency jumps up to 86-89%
I see this consistently and do the single decoction method on my German and Czech lagers. My German lagers, I go longer on the lower end of the hochkurz time and shorter on the higher end. Do the opposite for my Czech beers. I do the decoction after the 158-160 rest to raise to mash out temp 170 on both. It adds about 10-15 minutes to my day, as I would have spent that time raising the temp to mash-out anyway. I use propane so I raise the temp slowly so I don't scorch my mash.
 
I have two Hochkurz mash profiles set up in Beersmith. One is 122°F to 155°F and the other is 144°F to 160°F. The latter is the standard you will find in most articles and discussions on the topic. I must have had something specific in mind when I created the first profile but for the life of me now I cannot remember why or what it was for. My schedule if around 45 minutes for each step. I use either my Anvil Foundry 6.5 or SS Brewtech SVBS and simply ramp up the temp via the control panel.

In all truth however except for noticing better mash efficiency I don't think I could tell the difference between my Hochkurz mashed beers from a single infusion. I have only tried a real decoction twice and the results did not warrant the effort imho.

I am not really interested in efficiency, other than know how inefficient my no-sparge mashing in my 10gallon Anvil Foundry is so that I can hit my numbers. But I like a well-attenuated beer that is still malty, and that is what I like about a Hochkurz mash, especially since it is so easy in an AIO like the Foundry.

I have also toyed with the idea of a lower starting point, and I know that was influenced by this article on KC Bier:
https://beerandbrewing.com/breakout-brewer-kc-bier/

They use IREKS malt, which is what I have been using for the past few years. The article has a nice description of what they like about decoction (malt flavor, foam stability) and what beers they use different step mash profiles for:

The lagers and wheat beers all get decoction mashes—an old-fashioned method in which part of the mash is separated and boiled, then returned to the main mash. The moderately modified malt they get from IREKS is well suited for it; besides adding richness and deepening the malt flavors, other benefits of the decoction mash include improved foam and stability. Most of the beers get single decoctions, but the bocks get double decoctions—that is, two successive portions of the mash are boiled. They carbonate the beers naturally via spunding—using CO2 from the fermentation process, rather than forcing in extraneous gas. This helps to create a softer texture and denser foam.

Graham, although a Kansas City native, is one of those German-trained brewers for whom Celsius and degrees Plato come more naturally than Fahrenheit and specific gravity. He describes their typical regime: steps at 62°C (143–144°F), 65°C (149°F), 72°C (161–162°F), each for 20 minutes; then two-thirds of the mash is pumped away, and the remaining one-third boiled for 15 minutes. Then the mash is reunited to reach about 76–77°C (168–170°F) for mash-out. He says that this process leads to relatively less-attenuated beer with a rounder, fuller malt character.

He and his brewing team are open to additional tweaks. In fact, they are adding a wrinkle to their mash regime after recently brewing an Uerige-inspired altbier. Following the Uerige recipe as closely as possible, Graham mashed in at 47°C (117°F) then did a short protein rest at 52°C (126°F). They didn’t really know whether the step was important; based on their analysis of their malt, there should be no need for a protein rest. They did it anyway, and they ended up with some of the best foam stability and attenuation they had ever gotten in a beer—and in this brew-house, that is saying a lot. “This head was so distinctive,” Holle says. “It was this really dense foam. It wouldn’t go away.”

As a result, Graham is now experimenting with that regime in some of their other beers, including their Winterbock. “It came out great,” he says. They also adjusted the other mash steps for the Pils. “It comes out drier and with a better head, so it looks like we will switch Pils permanently. It’s hard to argue that drier with a better head is not improving a pils.”

However, they like the round malt character of the Helles as-is. They won’t be fussing with the Dunkel, either.

Weirdly, he says the decoction leads to a less attenuated beer. That isn't my experience.

But the pils with a short protein rest, even though it shouldn't be necessary, led to better attenuation and better foam. Might have to try that again.

So many different things to try out. Unfortunately I don't brew often enough to really experiment with these things in a timely manner, but fun to think about and try when I can.
 
Weirdly, he says the decoction leads to a less attenuated beer. That isn't my experience.
I'll go back and check some of my results over the years to see if I see this in my results. To be honest, I measure this stuff but don't really pay attention to it unless I'm significantly surprised or being way off.
 
How much time do you all spend in the lower temp range ? I do hochkurz for all beers, for a good few years now, as i prefer lighter bodied beers. I almost always do the longer rest at lower temps ( i aim for 62c x 30-45 mins ), then 20 at 70c.

Im tempted to flip it around to maybe 15 mins max at 62c, then the rest at 70c.

Anyone ever done that?
 
How much time do you all spend in the lower temp range ? I do hochkurz for all beers, for a good few years now, as i prefer lighter bodied beers. I almost always do the longer rest at lower temps ( i aim for 62c x 30-45 mins ), then 20 at 70c.

Im tempted to flip it around to maybe 15 mins max at 62c, then the rest at 70c.

Anyone ever done that?
I don't do step mashes, but less time in the lower temp rest, and more time at the higher temp rest should result in a fuller body due to more residual dextrin and a less fermentable wort.

Brew on :mug:
 
I don't do step mashes, but less time in the lower temp rest, and more time at the higher temp rest should result in a fuller body due to more residual dextrin and a less fermentable wort.

Brew on :mug:
Yes, it should, i was wondering if anyone had actually noticed a difference.

I'll try it anyway on my next mild. I know some people mash their milds only at the upper end, no beta rest. Never been game to try.
 
Im brewing a dark lager this morning so have gone 10 mins 62c, then up to 69c for 45, then 72 for 20. See how it goes.
 
Yes, it should, i was wondering if anyone had actually noticed a difference.
I do this for my German pils v. my Czech pils. I feel it gives the Czech pils more mouth feel and makes the German pils dry on the finish. Or it could be just be the different yeasts I use.😛
 
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I used to double decoct all of my German (Weizens, Dunkels, Marzens) and Czech lagers. I since have adopted a faster decoction schedule that gives me crazy dense foam, good attenuation and a noticeable layered malt character from the atypical decoction schedule I use.
I sometimes mash in at 35C, usually it’s at 52C. I only stay at this protein rest for 10 minutes then pull 2/3 of the mash, double the normally prescribed 1/3. I then heat BOTH the decoction and rest mash, which gets the rest mash out of the protein rest to avoid the potential problems of sitting there too long. The decoction gets heated to 65C for my German brews but 70-72C for Czech, and the rest mash is brought up to 62C.
After a 15 min rest the decoction is brought to a boil and after 10-15 min only enough of it is added to the rest mash to boost it to 70-72C. The remainder of the decoction is boiled for an additional 15-25 minutes before added back for mash-out.
With this enhanced method, the longer decoction does add some Maillard reaction and flavors and deeper color. You are managing two mashes at the same time, but it’s a shorter brew day than a full double decoction schedule.
You can modify this schedule into a Hochkurz by mashing in 62-64C then pulling a large 2/3 decoction and add back in two stages if you want to get crazy.
 
With an AIO brewing setup, i think it would be pretty easy to do 2 separate mashes?. Stove top for decoction, then when its done start the main mash. Timing would be pretty easy.

Either way i think ill give it a go
 
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