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Higher Sulfate than Chloride NEIPA

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OkeyDokeySmokey

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So I've made a handful of NEIPA's and I've always used a higher chloride to sulfate ratio. I've never been thrilled with the results so I'm thinking of using more sulfate than chloride in my next batch while also trying to keep the calcium low as calcium is known to increase hardness in water.

Does anyone do something similar in their NEIPA's? I know this isn't the common approach to making NEIPA's but after listening to several podcasts and reading numerous interviews from the pros there appears to be many different ways when incorporating salts to achieve that soft mouthfeel.

Using Bru'n water...

My current target mash profile is

Calcium 40 ppm
Magnesium 30 ppm
Sodium 72 ppm
Sulfate 150 ppm
Chloride 100 ppm
Bicarbonate 147 ppm

Mash pH 5.2

The overall finished water profile

Calcium 40 ppm
Magnesium 20 ppm
Sodium 49 ppm
Sulfate 111 ppm
Chloride 64 ppm
Bicarbonate N/A

Knockout pH close to 5

I will only be using NaCl and Epson salt

I always pay more attention to the mashing water profile since that is when I add all of my salt additions and most of my phosphoric additions. Maybe I've been paying attention to the wrong profile?

I will add a small phosphoric addition to the kettle if I need to get the pH down before knocking out.

The grist for my next NEIPA is as follows

2 row 80%
White wheat 10%
carafoam 5%
Crystal 15 5%

Shooting for a FG of 1.015

Any help would be appreciated thanks!
 

dmtaylor

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"The ratio" is a crock of sh**. What really matters is the amount of each separately. Chloride will enhance malt flavor. Sulfate adds dryness that exaggerates hop bitterness. If you want one or the other, increase it. If you want both, increase both. Ignore "the ratio".

At 111 ppm sulfate and 64 ppm chloride, you're getting virtually zero flavor effects out of either one of them. Consider doubling or tripling both, that will have a greater impact.
 

thehaze

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I ( I know couchsending feels the same ) personally believe that high Ca levels combined with high Cl levels has the potential to add chalkiness to a beer. This has been my experience so far with a few batches brewed in the past 12 months. I also exchanged some emails with a known brewery from UK, and they too confirmed my thoughts. I can also add, that you can definitely keep Cl levels higher than SO4, but your Ca level should be lower than 50-60 ppm. My latest IPA, which was not an attempt to replicate a NEIPA, although it shared some common traits, came out soft.

This was my Mash Water profile: Ca: 55 ppm / Mg: 10 ppm / Na: 35 ppm / SO4: 70 ppm / Cl. 140 ppm / Mash pH: 5.3 ---> I used CaCl2, CaSO4, MgSO4, NaCl and KCl to add chloride without raising the Ca too much. My starting water is pretty soft.

My next beers will be brewed with much lower sulfate and chloride levels, keeping chlorides higher than sulfate. This is a result of a beer I brewed, which I splitted in two smaller batches. You can read the latest reply on this thread, where I describe what happened: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/pilsner-water-profile-for-ne-pa-ipa.655191/
 
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OkeyDokeySmokey

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I've been looking into using KCl but I am not sure of how to calculate the correct amount for additions being that I use Bru'n water and there is no input for KCl. How do you calculate your KCl additions?
 

dmtaylor

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I don't believe the chalkiness concern unless perhaps several hundred ppm Ca was used. Potassium (K) tastes terrible. So does magnesium (Mg). Use those very sparingly.
 

thehaze

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I've been looking into using KCl but I am not sure of how to calculate the correct amount for additions being that I use Bru'n water and there is no input for KCl. How do you calculate your KCl additions?
I use the NaCl field for adding KCl. 1 gr NaCl is something like 1.3 gr KCl. I can't remember where I got that from. But I've used 3.2 gr KCl in my latest IPA and it did not add any weird off-flavours. I know Mg does taste bad, like a very bitter, astringent kind of flavour which definitely lingers on the tongue.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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1.276 grams of KCl adds the same amount of chloride as 1 gram of NaCl.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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Data was hard to come by and is iffy, but it appears that the detectability limit for KCl in water may be something on the order of 3.4 grams in 5 gallons. Take this information with a grain of salt. ;)
 
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Silver_Is_Money

Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
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I sea what you're saying. ;)
The original source indicated that KCl's limit of detectability in water was at a concentration of 0.00242 M.

0.00242 Molar * 74.55 MW = 0.18041 g/L

0.18041 g/L * 3.7854 L/Gal. = 0.6829 g/Gal.

0.6829 g/Gal. * 5 Gal. = 3.41 g.
 
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