Tried my first herms batch today, and it was a disaster! The flow kept getting clogged and we had to abort the pump, but by the time we decided to do so the grains were so immulsified that i couldnt lauter and the wort was like chocolate milk. Any ideas on what could have gone wrong? Im using 10g igloo cooler with false bottom, march pump, circulate through copper wort chiller in a pot on top of propane stove. Im thinking the pump was sucking too hard and created the stuck sparge and clogged the lines, but im just not sure. The grain crush looked fine before I started. Any tips would be appreciated. I am in the process of going full electric but if I cant get this working ill forget about that and go back to the old school set up. Thanks
Herms nightmare
- Thread starter bigmike86
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Don't give up... my first run on my HERMS setup was a mess too. Do you have a valve on the output of the pump so you can regulate flow? If so, when you start recirculating, don't open the valve all the way... gradually open up the valve over the first 5-10 minutes as the grain bed settles. Unfortunately since you're using a cooler you can't really add a volume sight glass, but when you go full bore electric, a sight glass is helpful; when the bed starts to compact and is in danger of getting stuck, you'll see the level in the sight glass drop propitiously and that's a warning to ease up in the flow.
Another thing to watch for is your crush... I know some folks say they can crush to almost a fine powder, but on my system at least, I need a fairly coarse crush (I use 0.045 on my Monster Mill) to avoid lots of issues.
Finally... a silly question, but covering another base... I assume you have your pump oriented correctly? You typically want the liquid flowing bottom to top for an inline pump head.
Another thing to watch for is your crush... I know some folks say they can crush to almost a fine powder, but on my system at least, I need a fairly coarse crush (I use 0.045 on my Monster Mill) to avoid lots of issues.
Finally... a silly question, but covering another base... I assume you have your pump oriented correctly? You typically want the liquid flowing bottom to top for an inline pump head.
I do have a valve on the outlet but I had it wide open to start and didnt close it any after I primed it. The crush was from the grain mill at my LHBS and wasnt fine at all. Also I had the pump parallel to the ground, Ill try switching the inlet to the downward position.
Should I have the pump primed with water already or should I just throttle it back and prime with the mash?
Should I have the pump primed with water already or should I just throttle it back and prime with the mash?
The pump should be below the mash tun cooler, then you can just let gravity do her thing to prime the pump. You may find it useful to put an extra T after the pump and hook up a small valve on the T to help purge air as you're priming the pump. I didn't have one to begin with and that was a mistake. I added one in and it has helped immensely - just make sure it's not facing right at you!
jtp137
Well-Known Member
I used to have that problem now I mash really thin 1.6-1.7 quarts per pound
The advise to slow your recirculation rate is spot on. I never run full bore.
I also bypass my hex until the wort runs clear, which takes a few minutes.
I crush at .035 and have good extract efficiency (90%+) without jamming up the mash...
Cheers!.
I also bypass my hex until the wort runs clear, which takes a few minutes.
I crush at .035 and have good extract efficiency (90%+) without jamming up the mash...
Cheers!.
I just went through the same thing about a month ago!
Thought I could use the 10g rubbermaid, with my newly constructed herms brew rig. Could not get flow no matter what i did, knocked the manifold off its connection inside the cooler. Got to scoop all 24 lbs of heated grain out to reset, gave it one more try before I gave up. Dumped the mash.... Shortest brew day ever!
Gave it another try the following weekend. Attacked the problem 3 different ways and made it through the whole process.
-Started using rice hulls (about 1/2 lbs per 5 gal of beer)
-Changed Mill gap from .035 to .042 (still considering .045)
-Replaced the 10g cooler with a 15 gal pot from Spike with false bottom
IMO, after what i went through.... 10gal cooler is to small for a recirculation mash (10 gal batch). Having the extra room to get a water to grain ratio to atleast 1.5 makes it alot less like trying to pull water through cement!
Good Luck!
Thought I could use the 10g rubbermaid, with my newly constructed herms brew rig. Could not get flow no matter what i did, knocked the manifold off its connection inside the cooler. Got to scoop all 24 lbs of heated grain out to reset, gave it one more try before I gave up. Dumped the mash.... Shortest brew day ever!
Gave it another try the following weekend. Attacked the problem 3 different ways and made it through the whole process.
-Started using rice hulls (about 1/2 lbs per 5 gal of beer)
-Changed Mill gap from .035 to .042 (still considering .045)
-Replaced the 10g cooler with a 15 gal pot from Spike with false bottom
IMO, after what i went through.... 10gal cooler is to small for a recirculation mash (10 gal batch). Having the extra room to get a water to grain ratio to atleast 1.5 makes it alot less like trying to pull water through cement!
Good Luck!
I have been using the HERMS system for several years and still sometimes get a stuck mash. What I have found is to avoid this is to slowly start with the flow with a slow trickle and have the valve barely open to create back pressure on the output side of the pump. Even when the recirculating wort running clear it is often wise to keep the flow to approximately 1 to 1 1/2 gallons per minute. The liquor to grain ratio should be no lower than 1.5 quarts to a pound of grain. If it must be a thicker mash due to size of the mash tun, take a lesson from the BIAB systems and have filter to contain the grains. It helps being able to unstick the mash. My grain mill is still set at .035".
Ouch! My solution to a stuck mash like that before figuring out the best way to run mine was to pump water back through the false bottom to clear any blockages. It sucks because it dilutes the mash, but it at least kept me from wasting the whole thing. Just an idea for any future issues...
Ok guys this is some great advice! I will definitely add some rice hulls next time especially since I am at the mercy of the lhbs grain mill, ill see what they have it set at. Once I got the stuck mash I should have blown air through but we just kept stirring like crazy and by the time I realized what was going on I had chocolate milk. Even after aborting the pump we couldnt get it to lauter clear.
The cooler should be ok for me for now, I usually do german lagers and rarely exceed 14-15 lbs of grain, so I should easily be able to hit 1.5l/g thickness.
I also really like the idea of not running through hex until its running smoothly and clear. I might get some 2 row and do a practice run again before I ruin 25bucks of german pilsner malt
The cooler should be ok for me for now, I usually do german lagers and rarely exceed 14-15 lbs of grain, so I should easily be able to hit 1.5l/g thickness.
I also really like the idea of not running through hex until its running smoothly and clear. I might get some 2 row and do a practice run again before I ruin 25bucks of german pilsner malt
PlexVector
Mellow Goose Brewing
What diameter is the wort chiller you're pumping through? At least 1/2" I'm guessing, otherwise grain could clog it up.
Whenever you mash in or stir make sure you shut the pump off,otherwise it will pull flour and small pieces down and clog your false bottom.
I found this to be the biggest culprit....don't run the pump for 10-15 minutes after mashing in. When you first mash in it's all unconverted starch and it will start to gelatinize right away, clogging the bottom as you pull it down. After 10 minutes or so the starches will start converting to sugars, passing through the bottom and grain bed more easily.
Whenever you mash in or stir make sure you shut the pump off,otherwise it will pull flour and small pieces down and clog your false bottom.
I found this to be the biggest culprit....don't run the pump for 10-15 minutes after mashing in. When you first mash in it's all unconverted starch and it will start to gelatinize right away, clogging the bottom as you pull it down. After 10 minutes or so the starches will start converting to sugars, passing through the bottom and grain bed more easily.
My chiller is only 3/8" diameter, the rest of the system is running through 1/2" silicone tubing. The clog was actually worse in the 1/2" tubing though and once I cleared it the mash was like cement and lautering became impossible. If my next test fails I will look at upgrading the hex, the goal was to cut costs and use what I already had...silly me!
I just tried another batch without the pump and I couldn't even lauter, it was the crush!!! Apparently I started using the grain mill at the LHBS that crushes finer than the other, I really appreciate that they told me they crush differently after a year of shopping there! Im very ticked about it, I was planning on spending money to finish the electric upgrade but now Im thinking I need to buy my own mill. Very tired of the LHBS supplies...
Do you have a pic of your set up, false bottom, and pump/valve orientation? May help us to diagnose further.
For your latest stuck sparge experience, what was your water to grain ratio? Did you use rice hulls.
I circulate during dough-in, but I have my MLT output and input throttled way back until dough-in is over and grain has had a chance to vorlauf. This also helps keep my HERMs coil at mash temp. For single infusion mash of modern highly modified grain, conversion happens quickly. The benefits of HERMs systems is being able to control and maintain mash temps consistently throughout the mashing processing.
I mashed in at 1.5qt/lb, used .5lbs of rice hulls in ~15lb grain bill. After mash in I gave it 10-15 minutes, and then I was able to recirculate for about 10 minutes before the stuck sparge party began! After that I took the pump out of the equation and still couldn't lauter at all. Here are some pictures of my set up, its only missing the propane under the HLT. Gonna trim up the hoses to shorten the distance I'm pumping, but that shouldn't be the issue here.
I still think it is the crush since the guy at LHBS said I used the finer crush machine (thanks for finally telling me there was a difference after a year of patronage!!!!!!).
I did change to a 1/2" ball valve for the mash tun but I can't see how that could be the problem, water runs through fine and I never noticed and blockages in those fittings.
I still think it is the crush since the guy at LHBS said I used the finer crush machine (thanks for finally telling me there was a difference after a year of patronage!!!!!!).
I did change to a 1/2" ball valve for the mash tun but I can't see how that could be the problem, water runs through fine and I never noticed and blockages in those fittings.
I have a bottom draining MLT (a keg) and did have some issues with clogging, due to grain slipping under the false bottom.
I had a cheap and simple solution- I bought a huge grain bag from Wilserbrewer here on the forum. I had bought bags from him before, for my cider press, and had him make me a bag that would fit my keg MLT. I still use the false bottom, but since the bag was added I've never had any issues with recirculation or lautering. I crush at .029" or so, and mash at 1.5 quarts/pound now.
I had a cheap and simple solution- I bought a huge grain bag from Wilserbrewer here on the forum. I had bought bags from him before, for my cider press, and had him make me a bag that would fit my keg MLT. I still use the false bottom, but since the bag was added I've never had any issues with recirculation or lautering. I crush at .029" or so, and mash at 1.5 quarts/pound now.
Yes I did notice a little more grain finding its way under the false bottom than usual. I am not dismissing your advice, I think its a sound idea, but I am hesitant to add another step and piece of equipment to the process. That being said, if I fail two more batches that money could have bought the bag...
I will strongly consider your advice, thank you!
I will strongly consider your advice, thank you!
MizzouFermentationScience
Hanseniaspora ebrius
I brew HERMs and I'm quite erudite on the subject, I guess you could call me something of a hermaphrodite. I'm 99% sure that pump flow was your problem. 2 brews ago I was stupid (more likely drunk) and decided to open her up to see what would happen- clogged immediately. Luckily I was going for a quick brew day and doughed in at 145 instead of my normal 122. I blew into the bottom valve which got me a slow trickled that let me salvage the brew. The bleed valve is worth any time/expense- won't help with clogging but it clears air bubbles as you switch hoses around. I crush at LHBS, tight as possible, run through twice. My mash thickness is 1.5 qt/lb and I add 1/4 to 1/2 lbs rice hulls. I have to recirculate pretty slow and my temperature raises take awhile- but I am obsessed with efficiency for no legitimate reasons so more time spent mashing doesn't bother me (I've also rigged my system to be wireless so extended mash time results in more beers on the couch). To run faster I'd go coarse and use a bunch of rice hulls. One more thing- for good luck I pull a quart right out of the valve and pour over the top before I start the pump.
The fact that you were able to recirc at all is a good sign. It could just be as simple as closing your MLT drain valve a bit more.
Certainly on the return. That's a lot of height and resistance for the pump to push the wort back.
Possibly, and doesn't hurt to crush a bit bigger and adjust efficiency to compensate. Might cost, what, $1 in grain - if. Money well spent if not fighting a stuck sparge.
My previous set up used 5 gal Gott with same FB. I also had a 1/2 BV. Like Yooper reported, grains always made it under the FB.
Everything else in your set up and approach looks OK.
I very much appreciate your input. The thing is that after I stopped trying to recirc and took the pump out, I still couldn't lauter. To me that shows that it wasn't the pump. The only thing that I can think of that the pump could have caused was maybe pulling grain through the FB? I emptied the entire mash tun and put it back in and I still couldn't lauter.
With this new info do you still think it was the pump flow?
The pump can and will compact your grain bed if outflows are not kept in check. This is why it's important to watch your wort level when sparging. Once compacted you have to reverse flow or blow air to loosen. One of the main benefits of a sight glass on a MLT.
Sounds like a helluva time! Do you have flow coming out of the MLT but then stopping or slowing once it's at your pump. In my last set up, it would have to patiently wait for the flow to establish and ever so slowly open the MLT valve.
MizzouFermentationScience
Hanseniaspora ebrius
You compacted the grain bed- I've tried pouring back and forth on two occasions and it did not work either time. My guess is that you don't break up clumps enough. I go crazy with a electric drill paint stirrer in a separate bucket at dough in before pouring it in MLT each time I brew (like I said- obsessed with efficiency and have nightmares about dry grain in MLT). This has never given me lauter problems so it seems like compaction is working on a different physical aspect. That is a very limited set of data- I'd believe someone who says they know better but that's my experience.
Edit: also if you didn't clean out your FB that could be the issue. I have a braided screen on my drain tube under the FB just in case grain gets under there. I have no idea on the fidelity on standard FB's- I'm rocking a custom built unit loosely based on the $4.96 cake pan distributed by Food Lion.
Edit: also if you didn't clean out your FB that could be the issue. I have a braided screen on my drain tube under the FB just in case grain gets under there. I have no idea on the fidelity on standard FB's- I'm rocking a custom built unit loosely based on the $4.96 cake pan distributed by Food Lion.
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I'll throw this one out there because I don't think it has been mentioned yet; Are you sealing the lid while you're recirculating? I ask because I had all sorts of problems, similar to what you're experiencing on my RIMS setup until I tried leaving the lid off. Now that I leave the lid off, she flows like a champ. I have a Blichmann TOP - my flow rate is measured so I knew that wasn't the issue. The Mashtun is an SS Brewtech InfuSsion so I reached out to them to see if they had any insight or knew what might be going on. My inquiry was the second time they had heard of this happening. They did some tests and confirmed that it is possible with a sealed lid, negative pressure can form while recirculating which explains what I experienced.
I see how that could happen. I did have it closed while it was recirculating for the magical 10 minutes that it worked. I kept opening it to check and was only setting the lid on loosely after that. I doubt that was the issue in this case but I will keep it in mind as I move forward. Thanks for your input!
I see, this is a very good analysis. I have been thinking of it since this thread got revitalized and I do think you are right on that. I think what I will do is brew a batch with the pump completely removed from the equation to prove to myself that it wasn't the crush or the false bottom itself. If that works then I'll know that adding some type of bag/screen and slowing the flow rate will most likely fix the problems.
Picture shows pinched tubing at the pump exit. Is like that when you recirc? That could further restrict flow.
No not really, I will fiddle with the placement though so that it doesn't do that, but once I get the wort flowing it holds it up.
I'm not digging the inlet hose on the bottom and outlet on top. I changed to that since it was recommended. Is there a reason I shouldn't run parallel to the ground left to right? When I take the bottom hose out, all the wort in the entire system drains out the open inlet port on the pump, kind of annoying...
I'm not digging the inlet hose on the bottom and outlet on top. I changed to that since it was recommended. Is there a reason I shouldn't run parallel to the ground left to right? When I take the bottom hose out, all the wort in the entire system drains out the open inlet port on the pump, kind of annoying...
Alright guys, quick update. I crushed bigger, added more rice hulls, didnt even use the pump and I still couldnt lauter! I realized then it must be my new fittings and or false bottom. I dumped the mash into BK, switched to the old 3/8 fittings, dumped it back in and was able to lauter. I still struggled to sparge but I think i got a bunch of grain under false bottom by violently dumping mash back in cooler.
I am switching to a keggle system this summer when I will build a real herms setup, but in the mean time i ordered a bag from wilserbrewer just because Im tired of messing with different fittings and dont have much control over my crush.
Ill post again when I brew with the bag. Soooo tired of ruining brew day, wonderinf if I should have just kept it simple and not tried to go herms
I am switching to a keggle system this summer when I will build a real herms setup, but in the mean time i ordered a bag from wilserbrewer just because Im tired of messing with different fittings and dont have much control over my crush.
Ill post again when I brew with the bag. Soooo tired of ruining brew day, wonderinf if I should have just kept it simple and not tried to go herms
I had my grain mill set to a 0.035" gap and was getting a 88% efficiency consistently and had to run my wort pump slow. A few batches ago I opened my grain mill up to a 0.045" gap and am now hitting a 94% or slightly better efficiency. You may be able to ask your local store if they can set the crush gap for you. I also run my wort pump very slow and use my MT sight glass to open it up much wider without compacting the grain bed. You may also want to take a look at the bottom of your cooler and make sure there is a gap under the false bottom. As the plastic cooler heats up sometimes the bottom bubbles up a bit and hits the intake under the false bottom. If it looks like this is happening add a PVC pipe ring with some holes drilled in it or add a slotted washer.
I would setup your HERMS pumps and bring the water temp in your MT up to target then turn the pumps off and add your grains and then close your wort pump and turn it on and slowly open it up to around a gallon a min or so. You should not need or want to mess with the grain bed after this.
Check out http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step
Very good resource.
Stick with it and have fun.
I would setup your HERMS pumps and bring the water temp in your MT up to target then turn the pumps off and add your grains and then close your wort pump and turn it on and slowly open it up to around a gallon a min or so. You should not need or want to mess with the grain bed after this.
Check out http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step
Very good resource.
Stick with it and have fun.
Success!!!! I got my mesh bag from wilserbrewer and finally had a successful herms experience. I mashed in at 150 and slowly raised to 170 for mash out. Everything went beautifully! The bag wil be a big help as i diagnose my fittings and upgrade equipment. Thanks for all the help
bajaedition
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Glad you got this worked out
I had a herms system until last year when I sold it. I always thought it was to much of a hassle for my needs.
I love to brew on them, just I want to be able to walk away at the end of the day with my wort, ANS leave the system behind
Good Luck
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